Return-Path: Received: from rly-dd10.mx.aol.com (rly-dd10.mail.aol.com [172.19.141.157]) by air-dd03.mail.aol.com (v126.13) with ESMTP id MAILINDD033-ba04b36ab6878; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 19:34:03 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by rly-dd10.mx.aol.com (v125.7) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINDD102-ba04b36ab6878; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 19:33:46 -0500 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1NOh3U-0007rw-1W for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 00:32:20 +0000 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1NOh3T-0007rn-7A for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 00:32:19 +0000 Received: from web86505.mail.ird.yahoo.com ([217.146.188.130]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NOh3R-0000Wb-5B for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 00:32:19 +0000 Received: (qmail 2499 invoked by uid 60001); 27 Dec 2009 00:32:11 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btinternet.com; s=s1024; t=1261873931; bh=tSaSmoGWcoOcKdz7USyD8EyCs2Nvwr/+M4zUS5JPL0c=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=n8aPZu2BD4TmXamxdH31ufLGZ8NFaaTIqbQc9TCk4VXrZkWc/SmZCBiTfxZmWLvaBCbuWlngCZ5DbPvOIfdaz9UcURBrdGDUPUw11kJLSgKCWonZ7ZAATl1kZXAXJLQKUKxCWwNa1eSGDw+mIeRGTvc78yFPkXrEyMsr1fscIMY= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=btinternet.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=siz0BB3AxOxAKpt5wK1vGSYSxWh/F9umlwDMNXdFjVgguT0C9IluX7TnMSMqlNGgj4sk2SJ3K0A2zOUI9lmrcR5CQb0xW559BskS3FZcY/XYEe97Q5EIxWXc8tKil+oKNsP0rllHxbwJBE0pET7+yw0dE1jSVhcY6mBHSutOInU=; Message-ID: <80578.2091.qm@web86505.mail.ird.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: Az46aaQVM1nSiwHZJEuwqIgpbfFiSVysztVt63_ypodctzWbXKF0IpvBv2722z0CkahMDey7XDcWize93AtP7JWgOk1rwmW3r9fHRxs7DEM1I33_pZI5vvwWWIqdC0cT1Nx4xa8QpLnWPzb7oD4wmHjclsWzTb57adJYCxy.0D__yudA4mZ6hVngAL2TLou2uuiZxidPVAaQmtrwVn1vpZJhbdgqHW.ax6Q6.JusnUHCs2syJKwTOYpnYLDK_MGvQD0ssARwCzuvNkAdrr0iKEG3pLfnMa8iH.Bhoh7ZE2GjoOigMIYVRcQ391oaywvGItdLblzzAF0- Received: from [81.131.22.54] by web86505.mail.ird.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 00:32:10 GMT X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/9.0.20 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 00:32:10 +0000 (GMT) From: ALAN MELIA To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org In-Reply-To: <38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E828AD02@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Karma: unknown: DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 Subject: Re: LF: Influence of a TX antenna to a small rx antenna Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2014615444-1261873930=:2091" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.3 required=5.0 tests=HTML_30_40, HTML_FONTCOLOR_UNKNOWN,HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD,HTML_MESSAGE, HTML_TAG_BALANCE_TABLE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-d281.2 ; domain : btinternet.com DKIM : pass X-AOL-VSS-INFO: 5400.1158/0 --0-2014615444-1261873930=:2091 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Stephan yes the aerialls will be very close compared with the wavelengt= h so they will interact particularly is tuned. We did some measurements ar= Finbar's location several years ago http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/aecouple.htm=20 The interaction was measured on an antenna=C2=A0 RF bridge, and demonstrat= es the coupling between two wires. Best Wishes Alan G3NYK --- On Sat, 26/12/09, Stefan Sch=C3=A4fer = wrote: From: Stefan Sch=C3=A4fer Subject: LF: Influence of a TX antenna to a small rx antenna To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Saturday, 26 December, 2009, 18:15 =20 =20 Dear Lowfers,=20 Yesterday i saw the extreme influence of my 100m vertical tx antenna to the small acti= ve antenna. Now I have some ideas how to avoid that and would be thankful for= any comments and hints. During the QSOs there was much QSB in the RX signals, just as if someone is playing with= the AF-volume. First I thought it is caused by a loose contact in the Converte= r or in the fiber optic cable but later I found, that it was caused by the angl= e of the tx antenna to ground (Wind was good but with some QSB ;-) ). In my last QSO with IK1HSS I disconnected the TX wire from the loading coil and than, the whole signal was almost gone (when choosing =E2=80=9Cvisual mode LOW=E2=80= =9D at the argo monitor). Switching to =E2=80=9Cvisual mode HIGH=E2=80=9D and inc= reasing the AF a little bit gave almost the same QRM lines by DFC39 (vy strong yesterday). Now, the SNR was much better than before!=20 In the following pic you can get a impression of the dimension of the influence= of the TX ant (The RX ant is isolated to the rest of the rig by an optic fiber ca= ble and battery supply, so =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D coupled by the E field to th= e TX ant): In the left part the TX wire was disconnected from the coil and mode was HIGH In the middle part I connected the wire to the loading coil In the right part I switched to the LOW mode! I am sure that the TX ant does not only increase the QRM but also the wanted signal. So= the benefit will not be so strong than between left and right part in the pic.= But the SNR increases significantly, as I saw in the QSO with IK1HSS. So a disconnection of the TX wire makes sense. What are the alternatives?=20 Placing the RX ant apart from the TX ant to reduce the influence? I think with a 100m ver= tical I can forget that unless I do not want to spend 100s of meters of RX cable= ;-) Bringing the ant out of resonance? That is the one and only solution I think. Any bette= r ideas?=20 I could disconnect the loading coil at the lower end to ground. That could be done= with a relay (My RX/TX sequencer provides an output =E2=80=9C12V @ RX=E2=80=9D= that could directly be used for this). Probably there will be a residual coupli= ng capacity of the coil to ground and the relay contacts and so on, say 30pF= but since my ant C is 580pF that would be quite enough for deadjusting, I hope= so. As I thought about protecting the contacts and the PA in the case that there will be a mistake (contacts have to be closed without a voltage at the relay) in the circuit, i thought some Varistors or even better some antiparallel diodes= could be a good choice. That brought me to the idea that a power diode out of a= SMPS would easyly handle the antenna current with fast enough switching times. So do you think just two antiparallel diodes (or perhaps 2x2, 2 in series, and perhaps wit= h an additional 10=E2=80=A6100k Resistor parallel) without a relay could be sui= table to solve the RX TX ant influence problem? Could the TX signal distortion= be neglected? When the voltage across the diodes (RX case) is less than the forward volt= age, do the diodes act as an open contact, just with a few pF reverse capacity?= I think so but I don=E2=80=99t know much about the RX voltages that are give= n by such an antenna. There will be some experiments=E2=80=A6 J Comments welcome ;-) 73, Stefan/DK7FC =20 --0-2014615444-1261873930=:2091 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="0-52067181-1261873930=:2091" --0-52067181-1261873930=:2091 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Stephan yes the aerialls will be very cl= ose compared with the wavelength so they will interact particularly is tun= ed. We did some measurements ar Finbar's location several years ago
htt= p://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/aecouple.htm

The interaction= was measured on an antenna  RF bridge, and demonstrates the coupling= between two wires.

Best Wishes
Alan G3NYK

--- On Sat,= 26/12/09, Stefan Sch=C3=A4fer <schaefer@hst.tu-darmstadt.de>= wrote:

From: Stefan Sch=C3=A4fer <= ;schaefer@hst.tu-darmstadt.de>
Subject: LF: Influence of a TX antenn= a to a small rx antenna
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Date: Satur= day, 26 December, 2009, 18:15

=20 =20

Dear Lowfers,

Yesterday i saw the extreme influence of my 100m vertical tx antenna to the small acti= ve antenna. Now I have some ideas how to avoid that and would be thankful for= any comments and hints.

During the QSOs there was much QSB in the RX signals, just as if someone is playing with= the AF-volume. First I thought it is caused by a loose contact in the Converte= r or in the fiber optic cable but later I found, that it was caused by the angl= e of the tx antenna to ground (Wind was good but with some QSB ;-) ).

In my last QSO with IK1HSS I disconnected the TX wire from the loading coil and than, the whole signal was almost gone (when choosing =E2=80=9Cvisual mode LOW=E2=80= =9D at the argo monitor). Switching to =E2=80=9Cvisual mode HIGH=E2=80=9D and inc= reasing the AF a little bit gave almost the same QRM lines by DFC39 (vy strong yesterday). Now, the SNR was much better than before!

In the following pic you can get a impression of the dimension of the influence= of the TX ant (The RX ant is isolated to the rest of the rig by an optic fiber ca= ble and battery supply, so =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D coupled by the E field to th= e TX ant):

In the left part the TX wire was disconnected from the coil and mode was HIGH

In the middle part I connected the wire to the loading coil

In the right part I switched to the LOW mode!

I am sure that the TX ant does not only increase the QRM but also the wanted signal. So= the benefit will not be so strong than between left and right part in the pic.= But the SNR increases significantly, as I saw in the QSO with IK1HSS. So a disconnection of the TX wire makes sense.

What are the alternatives?

Placing the RX ant apart from the TX ant to reduce the influence? I think with a 100m ver= tical I can forget that unless I do not want to spend 100s of meters of RX cable= ;-)

Bringing the ant out of resonance? That is the one and only solution I think. Any bette= r ideas?

I could disconnect the loading coil at the lower end to ground. That could be done= with a relay (My RX/TX sequencer provides an output =E2=80=9C12V @ RX=E2=80=9D= that could directly be used for this). Probably there will be a residual coupli= ng capacity of the coil to ground and the relay contacts and so on, say 30pF= but since my ant C is 580pF that would be quite enough for deadjusting, I hope= so.

As I thought about protecting the contacts and the PA in the case that there will be a mistake (contacts have to be closed without a voltage at the relay) in the circuit, i thought some Varistors or even better some antiparallel diodes= could be a good choice. That brought me to the idea that a power diode out of a= SMPS would easyly handle the antenna current with fast enough switching times.<= /span>

So do you think just two antiparallel diodes (or perhaps 2x2, 2 in series, and perhaps wit= h an additional 10=E2=80=A6100k Resistor parallel) without a relay could be sui= table to solve the RX TX ant influence problem? Could the TX signal distortion= be neglected? When the voltage across the diodes (RX case) is less than the forward volt= age, do the diodes act as an open contact, just with a few pF reverse capacity?= I think so but I don=E2=80=99t know much about the RX voltages that are give= n by such an antenna. There will be some experiments=E2=80=A6 J

Comments welcome ;-)

73, Stefan/DK7FC

=20
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