Return-Path: X-Spam-DCC: paranoid 1290; Body=3 Fuz1=3 Fuz2=3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL, HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by paranoid.lipkowski.org (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id t4MJ0QSc005130 for ; Fri, 22 May 2015 21:00:26 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Yvs8B-0007cX-0N for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Fri, 22 May 2015 19:57:15 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Yvs8A-0007cO-KL for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 22 May 2015 19:57:14 +0100 Received: from smtpout2.wanadoo.co.uk ([80.12.242.42] helo=smtpout.wanadoo.co.uk) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1Yvs88-0005Pj-I4 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 22 May 2015 19:57:13 +0100 Received: from AGB ([95.150.81.140]) by mwinf5d27 with ME id X6x91q00C31esYX036x9sd; Fri, 22 May 2015 20:57:10 +0200 X-ME-Helo: AGB X-ME-Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 20:57:10 +0200 X-ME-IP: 95.150.81.140 Message-ID: <7D54675BFAAE4A879B838D48552438FA@AGB> From: "Graham" To: References: <56E9954CB7BF44C988D4CE07C37035B9@AGB> <69406B0D81604EB7AF9E593F01405D30@White> In-Reply-To: <69406B0D81604EB7AF9E593F01405D30@White> Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 19:57:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 X-Scan-Signature: c3a0d80882a29f438f57a981c7a65fcd Subject: Re: LF: 477 VK5CV de VK2XGJ Op8 690 mi -17 dB F:8% in Dapto, Austealia with 25w Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B6_01D094C9.7CBC7FD0" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 10.1.3.10 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3215 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B6_01D094C9.7CBC7FD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Markus=20 The communal sever is running the decision making part of the = dynamic system , along with distributing the call signs for the = list , the call signs are also vetted before distribution to = prevent 'random' events =20 The web linking transports from the Rx's call / s/n / % fade / time = or call / s/n / time [ no % fade for dynamic ] , there is no = DSP shared and as such cannot influence the decision of each = Rx station=20 The satellite Rx's provide the time stamp , and as can be = observed , [ if the windows software is used .. ] the spots from = the dynamic detectors are transferred to the server , then = after a finite delay . are distributed to the Opera users . with = the ''??'' stamp 'single' or 'false' or no '??' then validated . The Opera system functions , with or without web linking . in a = stand alone , dynamic detection , the s/n provides the = confidence level , other than that , If the TX is web-linked , the = psk-map data base holds the TX beacon .. without this , then = its difficult to evaluate , unless there exists a string of = decodes / detections , from which a profile may be established or = other Rx stations have decoded/detected the station=20 There being no master clock , the system runs as simultaneous = unique individual decodes/detection's , the only not allowed = condition , would be a random detection , occurring within the = time validation window of a genuine Tx ..But that event would = need to share the call sign with a actual event to be of = importance =20 In this , three Dynamic Rx stations share the same time stamp , = and are validated [ green] two would of also validated each = other. 18:38 477 VK3ELV de VK5FQ Op8 Deep Search 437 mi -36 dB in 18:38 477 VK3ELV de VK2XGJ Op8 Deep Search 290 mi -36 dB 18:38 477 VK3ELV de VK5CV Op8 Deep Search 431 mi -36 dB A local off air decode , simply provides a live input to the = server , which in turn evaluates the situation and is suggested = for remote or QRP TX sites.=20 Dynamic is only provided for 477K and 136 K , all other bands = are single mode=20 73-Graham G0NBD =20 From: Markus Vester=20 Sent: Friday, May 22, 2015 6:52 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: 477 VK5CV de VK2XGJ Op8 690 mi -17 dB F:8% in Dapto, = Austealia with 25w=20 Hi Graham, > ... note Phil is also running RX and may provide shortly a = secondary , off-air decode to provide a time stamp. maybe this is not such a good idea. When the timestamp from a local = decode is propagated over the Opera web link, all other active decoders = immediately get this info. A sceptic (are we?) could suspect that this = might be used by the detectors to correlate their last-received noise = against the known message and timeframe, using an arbitrarily low = detection threshold - a la "You've heard it too, haven't you? You surely = have...". This could make false positives very likely, but no one can = tell them from a real one. The Opera program then has four minutes (one = on MF) to output such a hit as a delayed dynamic deep search decode. = afterwards, the matching timestamps would be used to falsely "verify" a = false detection, which had really been provoked by exactly that = timestamp. In my opinion, it would enhance credibility to not propagate local = decodes, but let the transmitter only keep a "secret" log of their = emissions. This could then be used in an a posteriori comparison against = correlation results, which have been created independently without a = priori knowledge of transmit times.=20 All the best, Markus From: Graham=20 Sent: Friday, May 22, 2015 3:19 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: LF: 477 VK5CV de VK2XGJ Op8 690 mi -17 dB F:8% in Dapto, = Austealia with 25w=20 ------=_NextPart_000_00B6_01D094C9.7CBC7FD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Hi Markus
 
The  communal  sever is  running  the =20 decision  making  part  of the  dynamic  = system ,=20 along  with  distributing  the  call signs  for = the  list , the  call  signs  are  also =20 vetted  before  distribution  to  prevent =20 'random'  events 
 
The web linking  transports from the  Rx's =  call =20 / s/n  / % fade / time    or   call  = / s/n /=20 time  [ no % fade  for  dynamic ] , there  = is =20 no  DSP   shared and  as  such  = cannot =20 influence  the    decision  of each Rx station =
 
The  satellite   Rx's   provide the =20 time  stamp  , and  as can  be  observed = ,  [=20 if  the  windows  software is  used .. ]  = the =20 spots  from the   dynamic  detectors  are  = transferred   to  the  server , then  after a =20 finite  delay .  are  distributed to the  = Opera  users=20 . with  the  ''??'' stamp   'single'  or  = 'false'=20 or  no  '??' then  validated .
 
The  Opera  system  functions  , with  = or =20 without  web linking .  in a  stand  alone , =20 dynamic  detection  , the  s/n  provides  = the =20 confidence  level , other  than  that , If  = the  TX=20 is  web-linked , the  psk-map  data  base  = holds =20 the  TX beacon  .. without  this , then  its = difficult =20 to  evaluate ,  unless  there  exists  a  = string=20 of  decodes / detections ,  from which  a  = profile  may=20 be  established or  other  Rx stations  have =20 decoded/detected  the  station
 
There  being  no  master  clock ,  the=20 system  runs  as simultaneous unique  individual=20 decodes/detection's , the  only  not allowed  = condition  ,=20 would  be  a  random  detection , = occurring =20 within  the time  validation  window  of a  = genuine Tx=20 ..But  that  event  would  need  = to share=20 the  call  sign  with a  actual  event  = to =20 be  of  importance 
 
In this ,   three   Dynamic  Rx = stations =20 share the  same  time  stamp , and  are  = validated [=20 green]  two  would  of  also  validated  = each=20 other.

18:38 477 VK3ELV de VK5FQ Op8 Deep Search 437 mi -36 dB=20 in

18:38 477 VK3ELV de VK2XGJ Op8 Deep Search 290 mi -36 = dB

18:38 477 VK3ELV de VK5CV Op8 Deep Search 431 mi -36 = dB

A local  off  air  decode = , =20 simply  provides  a  live input to  the  server = , =20 which  in turn  evaluates  the situation  and  = is =20 suggested  for  remote or  QRP  TX sites. =

Dynamic  is  only  = provided =20 for   477K and  136 K  , all  other  = bands =20 are  single mode

73-Graham

G0NBD

 


 

From: Markus Vester
Sent: Friday, May 22, 2015 6:52 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: Re: LF: 477 VK5CV de VK2XGJ Op8 690 mi -17 dB F:8% = in=20 Dapto, Austealia with 25w

Hi Graham,
 
> ... note  Phil is also  running  RX  and = may =20 provide  shortly  a secondary , off-air  decode = to  provide a  time  stamp.
 
maybe this is not = such a good=20 idea. When the timestamp from a local decode is propagated over the = Opera web=20 link, all other active decoders immediately get this info. A = sceptic (are=20 we?) could suspect that this might be used by the = detectors to=20 correlate their last-received noise against the known message and=20 timeframe, using an arbitrarily low detection threshold - a la = "You've=20 heard it too, haven't you? You surely have...". This could make false = positives=20 very likely, but no one can tell them from a real one. The = Opera=20 program then has four minutes (one on MF) to = output such a=20 hit as a delayed dynamic deep search decode. afterwards, the = matching=20 timestamps would be used to falsely "verify" a false detection,=20 which had really been provoked by exactly=20 that timestamp.
 
In my opinion, it = would enhance=20 credibility to not propagate local decodes, but let the = transmitter=20 only keep a "secret" log of their emissions. This could then be = used in an=20 a posteriori comparison against correlation = results, which=20 have been created independently without a priori knowledge of = transmit=20 times. 
 
All the = best,
Markus
 

From: Graham
Sent: Friday, May 22, 2015 3:19 PM
Subject: LF: 477 VK5CV de VK2XGJ Op8 690 mi -17 dB F:8% in = Dapto,=20 Austealia with 25w

 
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