Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-mk03.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 1F48E38000083; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 12:42:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1UHGeG-0001c5-TJ for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 16:41:28 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1UHGeG-0001bw-9k for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 16:41:28 +0000 Received: from imr-db03.mx.aol.com ([205.188.91.97]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1UHGeD-0006Vv-Bp for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 16:41:27 +0000 Received: from mtaout-da04.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaout-da04.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.132]) by imr-db03.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 0E8E338000067 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 12:41:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from White (188-195-246-26-dynip.superkabel.de [188.195.246.26]) by mtaout-da04.r1000.mx.aol.com (MUA/Third Party Client Interface) with ESMTPA id 80B4AE0000F6 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 12:40:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <7C5C2CD5812A49A09397872CA2AE7051@White> From: "Markus Vester" To: References: <51458FA8.7000907@broadpark.no> <5145EA2E.8010300@broadpark.no> Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 17:40:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 12.0.1606 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V12.0.1606 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20121107; t=1363538462; bh=/CGpmt19ZaF7TVV0QUjtEyZdGphCEc6JjsedHu5/XJM=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=yG4xMGCcvhbSaqZqfZSpPvZ/RopvGQp+Cuk5RoJeYjvxRJiVfVbCBDtXWGvORQQwM Nhpf2+9H+ZN82xfZLUIUdd9VXpCy8Mxm65Va6vntDBvakHfdjjh9854VySuykvZ3/e 9Rhxo4b3ETTIlbbyShJ2wEbOGiEL2WrFSD4fEyuA= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:437148416:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Steinar, thanks for this info. I think the signal which was visible in Chris' and my µHz grabbers around 12 UT was a qrss transmission from RN3AGC. According to my understanding, from the Doppler shift you could estimate the vertical velocity of the layer but not the height. At vertical incidence, 0.1Hz / 138kHz would correspond to 0.36e-6 c ~ 108 m/s. However the movement would have to be faster when the same shift was observed with oblique incidence, so the interpretation depends on the distance between TX and RX. [...] Content analysis details: (-2.5 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [205.188.91.97 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (markusvester[at]aol.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -2.5 RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: edae4bc128aa121544439b7b7cfd26a1 Subject: Re: LF: A CME hit this morning Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01CE2336.93CE73B0" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mtain-mk03.r1000.mx.aol.com ; domain : mx.aol.com DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d61875145f2801fd9 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none Dies ist eine mehrteilige Nachricht im MIME-Format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01CE2336.93CE73B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steinar, thanks for this info. I think the signal which was visible in Chris' and = my =B5Hz grabbers around 12 UT was a qrss transmission from RN3AGC. According to my understanding, from the Doppler shift you could estimate = the vertical velocity of the layer but not the height. At vertical = incidence, 0.1Hz / 138kHz would correspond to 0.36e-6 c ~ 108 m/s. = However the movement would have to be faster when the same shift was = observed with oblique incidence, so the interpretation depends on the = distance between TX and RX.=20 I don't think Doppler on a narrowband signal alone will let you derive = the altitude of the layer, although in general LF signals will normally = not be able to penetrate much beyond 100 km above ground. In the "SXV = ripples" observations, there was an obvious frequency dependence across = the 100 Hz wide spectrum, which seemed to indicate an unusually large = delay of about 10 milliseconds. This is still a riddle as it can't = easily be explained by vertical multihop propagation. So I believe there = must have been a horizontally displaced and moving scattering center, = perhaps reminiscent of an Aurora reflection. But of course this is just = speculation. Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) From: Steinar Aanesland=20 Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 5:07 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: A CME hit this morning Hi Markus My IC-R75 (X-tal oven) is in REV CW mode and the pitch is 600Hz . My frequency scale is calibrated after the time station on 77.5KHz (599.90Hz in the waterfall). LA4ANA's beacon is 7.6Hz over the pitch freq in the waterfall. I hope I am not thinking 180 degrees wrong now, but this gives me 137787.6. Markus, is it possible to estimate the hight of reflection layer , when you know the frequency and the doppler shift ? LA5VNA Steinar loc:JO59jq Den 17.03.2013 11:15, skrev Markus Vester: > Steinar, >=20 > thanks for reporting this! The 0.1 Hz Doppler shift is remarkable. Is = your frequency scale upright or inverted? >=20 > On a several occasions a few years back, I observed still unexplained = "ripples" on SXV 135.8 kHz, which seemed to indicate a delayed component = with a similar-sized Doppler shift: > http://df6nm.bplaced.net/LF/sxv_ripples/sxv_ripples.htm >=20 > What is strange is that according your screenshot the shifted trace = appeared from 4:15 to 4:45 UT, whereas the Boulder magnetometer shows a = magnetic disturbance starting not before at 6:00:=20 > http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/rt_plots/bou_12h.html >=20 > BTW I wonder if LA4ANA's beacon would be detectable on one of our = 137780 Hz microHz grabbers here. Do you know his exact frequency, and = whether the carrier is phase continuous? >=20 > Best 73, > Markus >=20 >=20 > From: Steinar Aanesland=20 > Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 10:40 AM > To: *rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 > Subject: LF: A CME hit this morning >=20 >=20 > I think I picked it up with my 137Khz grabber. I am monitoring Robert > LA4ANA on 137780. It is ground wave between us, but I think I can see = an > sky wave refection also when the storm hit the earth. What do you = think? >=20 > https://dl.dropbox.com/u/16381257/qrss60_multipath.jpg >=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01CE2336.93CE73B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Steinar,
 
thanks for this info. I think the = signal which was=20 visible in Chris' and my =B5Hz grabbers around 12 UT was a qrss = transmission=20 from RN3AGC.
 
According to my understanding, from the = Doppler=20 shift you could estimate the vertical velocity of the layer but not the = height.=20 At vertical incidence, 0.1Hz / 138kHz  would correspond to 0.36e-6 = c ~ 108=20 m/s. However the movement would have to be faster = when the same=20 shift was observed with oblique incidence, so the = interpretation=20 depends on the distance between TX and RX. 
 
I don't think Doppler on a narrowband = signal alone=20 will let you derive the altitude of the layer, = although in=20 general LF signals will normally not be able to penetrate much = beyond=20 100 km above ground. In the "SXV = ripples"=20 observations, there was an obvious frequency dependence across = the 100 Hz=20 wide spectrum, which seemed to indicate an unusually large delay of = about=20 10 milliseconds. This is still a riddle as it can't easily be explained = by=20 vertical multihop propagation. So I believe there must have been a = horizontally=20 displaced and moving scattering center, perhaps reminiscent of an Aurora = reflection. But of course this is just speculation.
 
Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)

Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 5:07 PM
Subject: Re: LF: A CME hit this morning

Hi=20 Markus

My IC-R75 (X-tal oven) is in REV CW mode and the pitch is = 600Hz=20 .
My frequency scale is calibrated after the time station on=20 77.5KHz
(599.90Hz in the waterfall).  LA4ANA's beacon is 7.6Hz = over the=20 pitch
freq in the waterfall. I hope I am not thinking 180 degrees = wrong=20 now,
but this gives me 137787.6.

Markus, is it possible to = estimate=20 the hight of reflection layer , when
you know the frequency and the = doppler=20 shift ?


LA5VNA Steinar
loc:JO59jq


Den = 17.03.2013 11:15,=20 skrev Markus Vester:
> Steinar,
>
> thanks for = reporting=20 this! The 0.1 Hz Doppler shift is remarkable. Is your frequency scale = upright or=20 inverted?
>
> On a several occasions a few years back, I = observed=20 still unexplained "ripples" on SXV 135.8 kHz, which seemed to indicate a = delayed=20 component with a similar-sized Doppler shift:
> http://d= f6nm.bplaced.net/LF/sxv_ripples/sxv_ripples.htm
>=20
> What is strange is that according your screenshot the shifted = trace=20 appeared from 4:15 to 4:45 UT, whereas the Boulder magnetometer shows a = magnetic=20 disturbance starting not before at 6:00:
> http://www.swpc.n= oaa.gov/rt_plots/bou_12h.html
>=20
> BTW I wonder if LA4ANA's beacon would be detectable on one of = our=20 137780 Hz microHz grabbers here. Do you know his exact frequency, and = whether=20 the carrier is phase continuous?
>
> Best 73,
>=20 Markus
>
>
> From: Steinar Aanesland
> Sent: = Sunday,=20 March 17, 2013 10:40 AM
> To: *rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.o= rg=20
> Subject: LF: A CME hit this morning
>
>
> I = think I=20 picked it up with my 137Khz grabber. I am monitoring Robert
> = LA4ANA on=20 137780. It is ground wave between us, but I think I can see an
> = sky wave=20 refection also when the storm hit the earth. What do you think?
> =
>=20 https://d= l.dropbox.com/u/16381257/qrss60_multipath.jpg
>=20


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