Return-Path: Received: from rly-dd05.mx.aol.com (rly-dd05.mail.aol.com [172.19.141.152]) by air-dd06.mail.aol.com (v125.7) with ESMTP id MAILINDD064-b7d4af9db13109; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 16:28:58 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by rly-dd05.mx.aol.com (v125.7) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINDD057-b7d4af9db13109; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 16:28:53 -0500 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1N7yG0-0000Wi-9q for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 21:28:08 +0000 Received: from [83.244.159.144] (helo=relay3.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1N7yFz-0000WY-4O for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 21:28:07 +0000 Received: from web28107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com ([217.146.182.127]) by relay3.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1N7yFy-0005m0-1Y for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 21:28:06 +0000 Received: (qmail 86302 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Nov 2009 21:27:55 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.co.uk; s=s1024; t=1257888475; bh=TCEGYXUKUyucuy6mljlS79VYpzhEA75Ggk90yDjuB5c=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=GFTFJvuTwqgXVad8TJuXnxNVyT+euDfCKh5cBdwUcNNOV+clz6MsA8uUI8nS2HFhntICjftjH29vtU4MrvDWZLLHS6BGsLEyzt/1Pzi1yilj6Xi6BCZcxQLg2k9Mvxfwa8pfA5n+tbNDwWRJVMPWVo/Xm0dz12qFwxzJlGQ4xrg= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=29L/6ZLn0EU43rROvsEYJ05SJWHJ8o5JbN9jtPWrOg6YcojCyeK6BSTZ17ueVmqDRCsstIrVDVF05sFy4b7syTCUVg9eHuomdm2Rushq7S2Sda0+eaE2t3HG5+g8Tbj1BGFbdr1o/MhVewHps8M7IQoja0Sr+1YGwiVZ8WRW/WM=; Message-ID: <773621.85981.qm@web28107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: v.HTAPkVM1lPkITSLgSxjL_nEQy4exn5b7w8qMBsHPwOp.vXWBUfBiXn10eXhXZmZ7yzRxXVXB.aFel0eD5iQHzvnq8JmQKv3ZbODmmLiX3ZrWnfyZdjzGWQWVNc0vPwsLe.py4UUDPrAsSe3M0iVuvNG5Yky15jF9Tpfclq5q5KrD.s.mTQjC4FVeLx91UshLpszvvbxxUP9xI2Bj5G9QxsZiApn6HingNkoIWQjdb51YTu1jQKleVjBprM8ZjJdRYoeZ89IOkSEDhATGfBAGKz0m8Htdlk0ySdYUWiX8tPlG_3B1i8Vk8WFOEUFaiKxprEsaL0zeks Received: from [86.130.73.134] by web28107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 10 Nov 2009 13:27:55 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/8.1.6 YahooMailWebService/0.7.361.4 Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 13:27:55 -0800 (PST) From: M0FMT To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 DomainKey-Status: good (testing) Subject: Re: LF: RE: Re: RE: Re: G3XIZ - 1000 th MF QSO Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-806144338-1257888475=:85981" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=5.0 tests=HTML_40_50, HTML_FONTCOLOR_UNKNOWN,HTML_FONT_BIG,HTML_MESSAGE,LINES_OF_YELLING, LINES_OF_YELLING_2 autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-d232.1 ; domain : yahoo.co.uk DKIM : pass --0-806144338-1257888475=:85981 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jim and group =C2=A0 Since you have dragged me into this debate Jim I feel obliged to respond. =C2=A0 To date you have not caused me any bother from your WSPR activities. This= is probably due to your low TX power and antenna efficiency plus the dist= ance separating us. =C2=A0 Nobody has a right to "A Frequency" on any band even though the RSGB would= have you believe differently, especially on VHF but that's another issue.= You have no need IMHO to feel you are a Johny come lately to 500kc/s it's= your band as much as it is any one elses who satisfy OFCOMs requirements= (I feel a bit of a fraud about that myself at times). =C2=A0 None of that is at issue, what is at issue is the mode that carries no ide= ntification what so ever, so how would=C2=A0Dennis actually know who is se= nding? Also weak signal modes is a misnomer in that weak to whom? The blok= e 20 miles away it probably is weak but to the poor devil only a fraction= of a mile away its a rock pounder! On HF where there is only short distan= ce ground wave and fairly wide bands these constant carrier,=C2=A0unattend= ed, switch on and forget, non two-way=C2=A0communication=C2=A0modes co-exi= st quite well with other traffic. However on 500 kc/s we have the benefit= of very extended ground wave but the disadvantage of a=C2=A0very narrow= band to operate two-way communications along side a constant carrier mode= with no common means of contacting each other. AM, CW, FM and SSB are all= transparent modes so if the channel (and that's all we really have on 500= , not like in Norway) is congested it is easy to ask a fellow op to stand= by and that's what we do on CW and with the other transparent modes. We also don't need about=C2=A0 500= quids worth of computing gear to do it. And in=C2=A0any case even that wo= uld not help in the case of WSPR because it is not a two-way comms. system= !=C2=A0 The argument will go I am sure, that us CW merchants should buy ourselves= better CW filters and that my be the solution but please remember those= of us who build and use cw tend to use simple gear but even with your (no= t you in particular but figuratively) FT1,000,000MFJ's=C2=A0will have the= front end de-sensed by a whopping signal 1.5kc/s from the working channel= . So that's the issue Jim.=20 =C2=A0 IMHO it's not a compatible mode.=20 =C2=A0 When=C2=A0I applied for my NOV I asked for it on the basis of working CW,= QSOing in the Amateur fashion with some QRSS activity.=C2=A0I did not ask= =C2=A0to use a constant carrier mode 24/7. I asked for CW=C2=A0thinking ev= ery body else was asking for the same, looks like I was wrong! =C2=A0 I am please to see the Norwegians seem to have got it completely right 17k= c/s band with CW only. =C2=A0 This is not a debate the Europeans (apart from OZ,ON and now LA)=C2=A0or= the USA or the Canadians can enter into because=C2=A0none=C2=A0allows two= -way comms on 500kc/s. Those countries other than UK that do allow two-way= comms on=C2=A0500 are only sparsly populated with ops and do not see the= issue from first hand but purely from a theoretical perspective and thats= not the same thing. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 73 es cul on TB AM=C2=A0or 500 cw Jim de=C2=A0petefmt. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --- On Tue, 10/11/09, James Cowburn wrote: From: James Cowburn Subject: LF: RE: Re: RE: Re: G3XIZ - 1000 th MF QSO To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Tuesday, 10 November, 2009, 18:40 Hi Dennis =C2=A0 Not offended at all, more alarmed and disappointed that I have been causin= g you problems and grief. As the =E2=80=9Cnew boy to the band=E2=80=9D I= did not realize I was operating on top of your frequency. =C2=A0=20 =C2=A0=20 Many apologies to you, Chris (and probably Pete too) for my QRM.=C2=A0 If= you can let me know the sorts of times that you want to work the band the= n I=E2=80=99ll endeavour to keep in Rx only mode or QRT during those times= . =C2=A0=C2=A0Chris did suggest that if I could avoid =E2=80=9CWSPRing=E2= =80=9D on Saturday and Sunday mornings when a lot of CW QSOs are underway= then that would help. If there are any evening segments or weekday slots= that I could also avoid then do =C2=A0let me know and =C2=A0hopefully we= can find a good solution.=20 =C2=A0=20 I certainly don=E2=80=99t want to be a =E2=80=9CJohnny come lately=E2=80= =9D and ruin the band for all the other users=20 =C2=A0=20 =C2=A0=20 =C2=A0=20 With best regards =C2=A0=20 =C2=A0=20 Jim=20 =C2=A0=20 =C2=A0=20 Dr. James Cowburn G7NKS=20 =C2=A0 From: owner- rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner- rsgb_lf_group@bla= cksheep.org ] On Behalf Of DENNIS EASTERLING Sent: 10 November 2009 17:22 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re: RE: Re: G3XIZ - 1000 th MF QSO =C2=A0=20 Hi Jim =C2=A0 I was speaking figuratively as you are so near and=C2=A0on my xtl frequenc= y.=C2=A0=C2=A0 My comment=C2=A0was directed at Chris' statment in email su= bject1000 QSOs,=C2=A0who also suffers and others who have complained about= beacons in general.=C2=A0=C2=A0 In fact the band is often dead for hours= on end and it is nice to find any signal, beacon or QSO, especially when= testing.=C2=A0 My point is that =C2=A0is there should be room for=C2=A0bo= th=C2=A0beacons=C2=A0and QSOs,=C2=A0 then follows a suggestion that LFrs= =C2=A0may like to=C2=A0come to some agreement about reserving a section fo= r each mode. =C2=A0 Hoping I did not offend, 73 Dennis M0JXM ----- Original Message -----=20 From: James Cowburn=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 4:51 PM Subject: LF: RE: Re: G3XIZ - 1000 th MF QSO =C2=A0 Hi Dennis=20 =C2=A0=20 I did not realize I was causing you QRM. =C2=A0A quick e-mail would have= alerted me to it, rather than me being a =E2=80=9Cpain=E2=80=9D. =C2=A0= =C2=A0I=E2=80=99m happy to work out a compromise where we operate at separ= ate times or if you suggest a different frequency for me to work on. Just= drop me a line with your ideas on this.=20 =C2=A0=20 With best regards =C2=A0=20 =C2=A0=20 Jim=20 =C2=A0=20 =C2=A0=20 Dr. James Cowburn G7NKS=20 From: owner- rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner- rsgb_lf_group@bla= cksheep.org ] On Behalf Of DENNIS EASTERLING Sent: 10 November 2009 16:13 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re: G3XIZ - 1000 th MF QSO =C2=A0=20 Congratulations Chris. =C2=A0 Most wspr stations seem to congregate at the top end of the band and are= not too much trouble.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Jim G7NKS is the biggest pain as= he sits on my xtl frequency and is so close.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Maybe a compromi= se would be for people using beacons to keep to one segment of the band (h= opefully not 502.2 kHz -hee) =C2=A0 73 Dennis M0JXM ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chris Osborn=20 To: LF Group=20 Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 6:03 PM Subject: LF: G3XIZ - 1000 th MF QSO =C2=A0 LF It was a red-letter day today as I achieved my 1000th QSO using 600m. This includes 72 cross-band contacts, virtually all of which were 600m /= 80m. Rog GW3UEP was my 1000 th QSO with runners up G3XPU - No. 999 and EI0CF -= No. 998. QSO break-down according to mode: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 928 CW,=C2=A0 34 RTTY= =C2=A0 and=C2=A0=C2=A0 5 QRSS 600m STATIONS My personal 600m (EU) spreadsheet lists a total of 59 stations and many of= these go back to the start of the UK=C2=A0 600m allocation in March 2007. Of these I have worked or heard only 15 in the past month (excluding beaco= ns). Many stations on my list came up only briefly and were never heard of agai= n:=C2=A0 G3KZU, G3YHV . . . Others were once very active but have subsequently gone QRT:=C2=A0 G3UNT,= G3VTT, G4GDR. . . MOST FREQUENTLY WORKED With so few active operators it is obvious that one will work the same sta= tions many times and the top 10 stations account for 70% of my total conta= cts. My most frequently worked stations are: GW3UEP - 120=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 G3KEV - 102=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 M0FMT - 90=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 G3ZWH=C2=A0 -=C2=A0 80=C2=A0 (al= as now SK) G3DXZ=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -=C2=A0=C2=A0 67=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 G4GDR -= =C2=A0=C2=A0 60=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 EI0CF/ GI4DPE=C2=A0 -=C2=A0= 51=C2=A0=C2=A0 M0JXM - 48 G3UNT=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -=C2=A0=C2=A0 45=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 G3VTT=C2= =A0 -=C2=A0=C2=A0 38 CROSS-BAND AND EU STATIONS There are a few 'regular' stations who listen to 600m and enjoy a cross-ba= nd QSO: DK6NI, F6CNI, F6ACU, OH1LSQ, PA0LCE, G3TVF . . . and our few EU MF friends are still active: ON4KTJ, OR7T and OZ8NJ. . . WSPR ON 600m I personally find it sad that the present level of enthusiasm for the WSPR= mode was never achieved for=C2=A0 hand sent Morse (CW), which after all= is the mode which I call to mind when thinking of the old MF marine band. If the WSPR 'enthusiasm' phase lasts, with more and stronger stations oper= ating 24/7 in the narrow 3 kHz segment which is the 600m band then I guess= it may be time for me to QSY. 73 Chris G3XIZ =C2=A0 =20 --0-806144338-1257888475=:85981 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Jim and group
 
Since you have dragged me into this debate Jim I feel obliged to resp= ond.
 
To date you have not caused me any bother from your WSPR= activities. This is probably due to your low TX power and antenna efficie= ncy plus the distance separating us.
 
Nobody has a right to "A Frequency" on any band even though the RSGB= would have you believe differently, especially on VHF but that's another= issue. You have no need IMHO to feel you are a Johny come lately to 500kc= /s it's your band as much as it is any one elses= who satisfy OFCOMs requirements (I= feel a bit of a fraud about that myself at times).
 
None of that is at issue, what is at issue is the mode that carries= no identification what so ever, so how would Dennis actually know wh= o is sending? Also weak signal modes is a misnomer in that weak to whom?= The bloke 20 miles away it probably is weak but to the poor devil only a= fraction of a mile away its a rock pounder= ! On HF where there is only short distance ground wav= e and fairly wide bands these constant carrier, unattended, switch on= and forget, non two-way communication modes co-exist quite well= with other traffic. However on 500 kc/s we have the benefit of very exten= ded ground wave but the disadvantage of a very narrow band to operate= two-way communications along side a constant carrier mode with no common= means of contacting each other. AM, CW, FM and SSB are all transparent mo= des so if the channel (and that's all we really have on 500, not like in= Norway) is congested it is easy to ask a fellow op to stand by and that's what we do= on CW and with the other transparent modes. We also don't need about = ; 500 quids worth of computing gear to do it. And in any case even th= at would not help in the case of WSPR because it is not a two-way co= mms. system! 
The argument will go I am sure, that us CW merchants should buy ourse= lves better CW filters and that my be the solution but please remember tho= se of us who build and use cw tend to use simple gear but even with your= (not you in particular but figuratively) FT1,000,000MFJ's will have= the front end de-sensed by a whopping signal 1.5kc/s from the working cha= nnel. So that's the issue Jim.
 
IMHO it's not a compatible mode.
 
When I applied for my NOV I asked for it on the basis of working= CW, QSOing in the Amateur fashion with some QRSS activity. I did not= ask to use a constant carrier mode 24/7. I asked for CW thinkin= g every body else was asking for the same, looks like I was wrong!
 
I am please to see the Norwegians seem to have got it completely righ= t 17kc/s band with CW only.
 
This is not a debate the Europeans (apart from OZ,ON and now LA) = ;or the USA or the Canadians can enter into because none allows= two-way comms on 500kc/s. Those countries other than UK that do allow two= -way comms on 500 are only sparsly populated with ops and do not see= the issue from first hand but purely from a theoretical perspective and= thats not the same thing.
 
 
73 es cul on TB AM or 500 cw Jim de petefmt.
 
 


--- On Tue, 10/11/09, James Cowburn <james.cowburn@v= irgin.net> wrote:

From: James Cowburn <james.cowburn@virgin.n= et>
Subject: LF: RE: Re: RE: Re: G3XIZ - 1000 th MF QSO
To: rsgb_= lf_group@blacksheep.org
Date: Tuesday, 10 November, 2009, 18:40

Hi Dennis

 =

Not offended at all,= more alarmed and disappointed that I have been causing you problems and= grief. As the =E2=80=9Cnew boy to the band=E2=80=9D I did not realize I= was operating on top of your frequency.  =20

 = =20

Many apologies to yo= u, Chris (and probably Pete too) for my QRM.  If you can let me know= the sorts of times that you want to work the band then I=E2=80=99ll endea= vour to keep in Rx only mode or QRT during those times.   Chris= did suggest that if I could avoid =E2=80=9CWSPRing=E2=80=9D on Saturday= and Sunday mornings when a lot of CW QSOs are underway then that would he= lp. If there are any evening segments or weekday slots that I could also= avoid then do  let me know and  hopefully we can find a good so= lution.=20

 = =20

I certainly don=E2= =80=99t want to be a =E2=80=9CJohnny come lately=E2=80=9D and ruin the ban= d for all the other users=20

 = =20

 = =20

 = =20

With best regards

=  =20

=  =20

Jim=20

=  =20

=  =20

Dr. James Cowburn G7= NKS=20

=  

From:= owner- rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner- rsgb_lf_group@= blacksheep.org ] On Behalf Of = DENNIS EASTERLING
Sent:= 10 November 2009 17:22
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: LF: Re: RE: Re: G3XIZ - 1000 th MF QSO

 =20

Hi Jim

 

I was speaking figuratively as you are so near= and on my xtl frequency.   My comment was directed at= Chris' statment in email subject1000 QSOs, who also suffers and othe= rs who have complained about beacons in general.   In fact the= band is often dead for hours on end and it is nice to find any signal, be= acon or QSO, especially when testing.  My point is that  is ther= e should be room for both beacons and QSOs,  then foll= ows a suggestion that LFrs may like to come to some agreement ab= out reserving a section for each mode.

 

Hoping I did not offend, 73 Dennis M0JXM=

----- Original Message -----

To:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org

Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 4:51 PM

Subject: LF: RE: Re: G3XIZ - 1000 th MF QSO

 

Hi Dennis=20

 = =20

I did not realize I= was causing you QRM.  A quick e-mail would have alerted me to it, ra= ther than me being a =E2=80=9Cpain=E2=80=9D.   I=E2=80=99m happy= to work out a compromise where we operate at separate times or if you sug= gest a different frequency for me to work on. Just drop me a line with you= r ideas on this.=20

 = =20

With best regards

=  =20

=  =20

Jim=20

=  =20

=  =20

Dr. James Cowburn G7= NKS=20

From:= owner- rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner- rsgb_lf_group@= blacksheep.org ] On Behalf Of = DENNIS EASTERLING
Sent:= 10 November 2009 16:13
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: LF: Re: G3XIZ - 1000 th MF QSO

=

 =20

Congratulations Chris.

 

Most wspr stations seem to congregate at the to= p end of the band and are not too much trouble.    Jim G7NK= S is the biggest pain as he sits on my xtl frequency and is so close. = ;  Maybe a compromise would be for people using beacons to keep to on= e segment of the band (hopefully not 502.2 kHz -hee)

 

73 Dennis M0JXM

----- Original Message -----

From: Chris Osborn

To:LF Group

Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 6:03 PM

Subject: LF: G3XIZ - 1000 th MF QSO

 

LF

It was a red-le= tter day today as I achieved my 1000th QSO using 600m.
This includes 72= cross-band contacts, virtually all of which were 600m / 80m.

Rog= GW3UEP was my 1000 th QSO with runners up G3XPU - No. 999 and EI0CF - No.= 998.

QSO break-down according to mode:     928 CW,&= nbsp; 34 RTTY  and   5 QRSS

600m STATIONS
=
My personal 600m (EU) spreadsheet lists a total of 59 stations and many of these go back to the= start of the UK  600m allocation in March 2007.
Of these I have= worked or heard only 15 in the past month (excluding beacons).
Many st= ations on my list came up only briefly and were never heard of again: = ; G3KZU, G3YHV . . .
Others were once very active but have subsequently= gone QRT:  G3UNT, G3VTT, G4GDR. . .

MOST FREQUENTLY WORKED

With so few= active operators it is obvious that one will work the same stations many= times and the top 10 stations account for 70% of my total contacts.
My= most frequently worked stations are:

GW3UEP - 120   = ;  G3KEV - 102      M0FMT - 90  &n= bsp;  G3ZWH  -  80  (alas now SK)
G3DXZ  =   -   67     G4GDR -   60&nbs= p;     EI0CF/ GI4DPE  -  51   M0JX= M - 48
G3UNT    -   45    = G3VTT  -   38

CROSS-BAND AND EU STATIONS
=
There are a few 'regular' stations who listen to 600m and enjoy a cros= s-band QSO:
DK6NI, F6CNI, F6ACU, OH1LSQ, PA0LCE, G3TVF . . .

and= our few EU MF friends are still active:
ON4KTJ, OR7T and OZ8NJ. . .

WSPR ON 600m

I personally find it sad that the pre= sent level of enthusiasm for the WSPR mode was never achieved for  ha= nd sent Morse (CW), which after all is the mode which I call to mind when= thinking of the old MF marine band.
If the WSPR 'enthusiasm' phase las= ts, with more and stronger stations operating 24/7 in the narrow 3 kHz seg= ment which is the 600m band then I guess it may be time for me to QSY.
=
73 Chris G3XIZ





 

<= /BLOCKQUOTE>

=20 --0-806144338-1257888475=:85981--