Return-Path: Received: from rly-dg09.mx.aol.com (rly-dg09.mail.aol.com [172.19.151.93]) by air-dg02.mail.aol.com (v126.13) with ESMTP id MAILINDG022-5f14b4a4dec184; Sun, 10 Jan 2010 17:00:33 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by rly-dg09.mx.aol.com (v125.7) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINDG096-5f14b4a4dec184; Sun, 10 Jan 2010 17:00:13 -0500 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1NU5of-000630-JB for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 10 Jan 2010 21:59:21 +0000 Received: from [83.244.159.144] (helo=relay3.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1NU5of-00062q-3n for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 10 Jan 2010 21:59:21 +0000 Received: from smtp820.mail.ird.yahoo.com ([217.146.189.247]) by relay3.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NU5od-0001KO-15 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 10 Jan 2010 21:59:21 +0000 Received: (qmail 72818 invoked from network); 10 Jan 2010 21:59:13 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=btopenworld.com; h=Received:X-Yahoo-SMTP:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-ID:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=kC2hukxa6d6tHM610+6gYtwJTOLrWUhVqE7ZfCnEY+kq2m+Cfarwzd7FduJOdVGVuBTN1XzMdAHZW6ett8DwtT1r3xysf2ZnYhd+pR9p+ld3FC7bC+j8KGU7N7LVXn6LQbku6AY0pt767mbpr9ih4OfJk2JqIBazXTze4mfKVKo= ; Received: from unknown (HELO JimPC) (james.moritz@86.180.119.65 with login) by smtp820.mail.ird.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jan 2010 21:59:13 -0000 X-Yahoo-SMTP: qKIhhNCswBB2TTHr2BORWcGGR2mpopxhCcunGIxpCKQYiG07Q7UOhNo- X-YMail-OSG: hxzcHIkVM1l_3xlLkp6i5BjFhV3ShoggeLAnml5Kx6jT8pbCg3LCS6KkPd8oUOSf1VYhNmdAWW8gQH5R9rBzQ9tTyGc5fghUuJokHFJD.tge42Mu5OgRty96qjSA1iXSKf41cfYggw2PdfXtLICQstUFlRzxJNgFOnmXHjJ0JN2vTmCUq9B.UPgo5XuolfeW372vQpWgDsICO.DYgtCUG377tmBsufoTpTbsClIU7l654ttbGuP2ZsZYF36JakzzTi03G5hghCY2uIw- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 Message-ID: <74FCFE8B23464B2DB8B5DF8D351877BD@JimPC> From: "James Moritz" To: References: <000e01ca9223$6d16ec90$0517aac0@desktop> In-Reply-To: <000e01ca9223$6d16ec90$0517aac0@desktop> Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 21:59:13 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6002.18005 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18005 DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,none Subject: LF: Re: Link budget calculation or estimation of dist for given power on WSPR Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 Dear Jim, LF Group, The main variables involved are: TX ERP TX directional pattern (probably only if a TX loop is used) Distance - leading to "geometric" propagation losses Other propagation losses - for DX signals, basically due to ionospheric effects Band noise level at the receiver Directional patttern of RX antenna Received SNR required for mode in use It is difficult to make a direct calculation because some of these are not known to any great level of confidence - in particular, the "other" ionospheric propagation losses, and the band noise level at a particular receiver. Noise levels can be determined by field strength measurements, although few people have done this - my best estimate at M0BMU is about 3uV/m in 2.5kHz bandwidth under quiet conditions, although obviously varying with time of day, band conditions, direction etc. There does not seem to be much info available for ionospheric losses at LF/MF - this is of course part of the motivation for using modes such as WSPR to probe propagation. But you can be sure that simply extrapolating results with closer stations to long distances won't give a reliable answer - there is no simple relation between loss and distance. But on a practical level, you can use the WSPR database to get a fairly good idea of how much TX ERP you need to be received by particular stations, e.g. WD2XSH/17 has spotted M0BMU 40 times during the past week, with SNR between -31dB and -16dB, but quite frequently around -25dB . G7NKS is a similar distance and path, so the same ERP (estimated at 2W for M0BMU) should give similar results. If you would be content with rather fewer spots at around -30dB, close to the minimum for WSPR, you could reduce the ERP by about 5dB, or perhaps even 10dB reduction (200mW) if you would be happy with just the odd 1 or 2 spots at peaks in the propagation - this is the kind of level G4JNT is running, and has indeed been spotted a couple of times at WD2XSH/17. You could do a similar kind of estimate with other stations, of course. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Cowburn" To: Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 6:33 PM Subject: LF: Link budget calculation or estimation of dist for given power on WSPR > Dear LF, > > Has anyone any ideas or suggestions on a resource for calculation of a > link > budget for WSPR over a set distance?