Return-Path: Received: from rly-dd03.mx.aol.com (rly-dd03.mail.aol.com [172.19.141.150]) by air-dd05.mail.aol.com (v121_r4.4) with ESMTP id MAILINDD052-b6a4965cd693c1; Thu, 08 Jan 2009 04:55:00 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by rly-dd03.mx.aol.com (v121_r4.4) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINDD034-b6a4965cd693c1; Thu, 08 Jan 2009 04:54:50 -0500 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1LKrax-0000Y3-W1 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:54:31 +0000 Received: from [83.244.159.144] (helo=relay3.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1LKraw-0000Xu-QQ for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:54:30 +0000 Received: from web28101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com ([217.146.182.121]) by relay3.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1LKrav-0000o2-Ii for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:54:30 +0000 Received: (qmail 12931 invoked by uid 60001); 8 Jan 2009 09:54:20 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Message-ID; b=251RALVsnZ5SLZDmMc/n0YNIhnLo31sB6HtI5hsMozuUSXqUjT6chSfxCcdk4BYlfs+78Ty4H/G8fjYeg/Os4B+cAWSB0NEXlomVKKZ661cMwlF8S/s/aiQFBzukV2TvZRTCYddGXB0pFLU7XlLE4MNGIgcAoyJZec0X637zSIE=; X-YMail-OSG: Otk.zFEVM1kHqbutaXRYpH7KkQtKWFwISa5NeDnxU668vroM_DPn._AVpxppm_QBzKnxnl0H6z71VHtfKp93BVKrKLl1DjfgDlTFpdhjurQPRMyfoS432GajP6c2kcmOZop8tP1pI_FKyazs7e78hC56qgebdHj2mkKvPzBBr0FRQZASYH4QQgHDX_YzCHzAP_v8hjfUxfH5zEwwfAPQB.0WKgAC21pRefNHgosCv0clZ9QONPq9GSc2q3RTh8yMOGjcd6wPd8lF Received: from [86.130.69.9] by web28101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:54:20 GMT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.7.260.1 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 09:54:20 +0000 (GMT) From: M0FMT To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org In-Reply-To: <661888.79627.qm@web28507.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <743248.12366.qm@web28101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> DomainKey-Status: good (testing) Subject: Re: LF: 500 kHz - Not so Silent majority Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-30342817-1231408460=:12366" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.7 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_FONTCOLOR_BLUE, HTML_MESSAGE,HTML_TAG_EXISTS_TBODY,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 --0-30342817-1231408460=:12366 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Chris and LF =C2=A0 It seems every action has unintended consequences. In writing the mail below= I was trying to make a point about the escalating use of band width per tra= nsmission. That Olivia thing is wide plus side bands, as Mal said. If you or= I started using it, it=C2=A0really would mess up the band for both of us.= =C2=A0Another mail said its OK because it is spread spectrum therefore we wo= uld not notice it. That in my opinion is tosh because as we both know I can=20= read your key up signal (and probably you can read mine) which means an SS s= ignal will have to be blooming small as not to be worth radiating not to be=20= heard or interfere with local stations. People seem to be carried away with=20= modes that compete with each other like Wireless LAN etc but the principal d= oes not in=C2=A0IMHO compute when in proximity to other single frequency=C2= =A0Amateur Radio QSOing modes especially CW. That what I was trying to say! =C2=A0 I take back any thing that I said that has offended you in any way and pleas= e end your moratorium on 500kc/s activity. I did not want this unintended re= sult of my mail=C2=A0trying to support Mal.=20 =C2=A0 This means I have had to retract nearly every thing I contributed on the sup= port of narrow BW signals=C2=A0for 500kc/s. In future I will zip it! =C2=A0 I am sorry Adrian has dropped 500kc/s however he does come up on 80m and=C2= =A0I bet he will not be able to resist listening and doing x band=C2=A0=C2= =A0contacts.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 73 petefmt Zipped!!! =C2=A0 --- On Thu, 8/1/09, Chris Osborn wrote: From: Chris Osborn Subject: LF: 500 kHz - Silent majority To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Thursday, 8 January, 2009, 9:02 AM I deduce that my (fairly) frequent transmissions on MF may be causing some annoyance and inconvenience to local stations. =C2=A0 Consequently I shall be QRT on 500 kHz for the remainder of this month. This will give local stations an opportunity to use=C2=A0a quiet band withou= t G3XIZ QRM. =C2=A0 I must report that sadly Adrian G4GDR has dismantled his MF equipment and=C2=A0returned his N.O.V.=C2=A0to OfCom. He was an active and keen MF operator and constructor but has lost interest=20= due to lack of activity. I for one will miss him. =C2=A0 73 Chris G3XIZ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 From: Dave G3WCB To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sent: Monday, 5 January, 2009 22:22:55 Subject: RE: LF: Re: Silent majority =EF=BB=BF=20 Dear LF,=20 =C2=A0 Geri DK8KW and Markus did some interesting slow-voice experiments on 137 kHz= a few years back.=20 =C2=A0 Definitely not a DX-mode, and a bit of a bandwidth-gobbler too=C2=A0;-) =C2=A0 Follow the link below:-=20 =C2=A0 http://www.qru.de/slowvoice.html =C2=A0 73, Dave G3WCB IO91RM =C2=A0 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep..org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacks= heep.org]On Behalf Of M0FMT Sent: 05 January 2009 02:37 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep..org Subject: Re: LF: Re: Silent majority Hi LF=20 Since by general consent the 600m band is now wide open for experimentation=20= of whatever computer aided mode that can be down loaded for free off the Int= ernet. Might I suggest the use of SSTV. They say a picture is worth a 1000 w= ords. I have thousands of holiday snaps I would like to share with the world= by way of a 24/7 beaconing experiment.=C2=A0 The result may be a bit more i= nteresting than the shopping lists of stations worked, equipment lists and r= ig specifications that get churned out ad nauseam over the weekends.=20 I am not sure what my afore mentioned local Amateur Radio 600m op friends wo= uld feel being only a few miles away from my QTH.=20 No, the above suggestion is ridiculous. It does however, Einstein, Planck et= al withstanding, beg the question; what is a suitable maximum bandwidth for= the development of new modes on our British 3Kc/s 600m band? =C2=A0I will s= tart the ball rolling by saying a BW no more than 50c/s. G3PLX managed with=20= less than 32c/s BW. Since there is a QSB / QRN issue on this band then hand=20= shaking could be introduced to ensure error free data transfer a bit like X2= 5 slow but sure yet confined in a very narrow bandwidth say 50c/s max. =C2= =A0We need to think outside the box and not try to shoe horn unsuitable mode= s onto 600m. To evoke names like Planck and co with all due respect to Alber= to (who I admire immensely for his great innovations with DSP, SDR, FFT proc= essing software) I think, =C2=A0is over the top. Nobody is into book burning= and denial of spectrum to impede progress but we only have 3kc/s to play wi= th here in the UK. =C2=A0I consider myself a =E2=80=9Cgrunt=E2=80=9D operato= r not a highflying =E2=80=9CEinstein=E2=80=9D radio spectrum quantum mechanic, but=20= I would hope we are trying to do more with less and I don=E2=80=99t think Ol= ivia is the answer. Whatever modes are proposed and developed, I would expec= t one of the cardinal points in their specification, along with very narrow=20= BW, to be compatibility with adjacent modes like CW and the effect on adjace= nt stations not running that particular mode.=20 In the mean time I am hoping to improve my manual CW skills assuming there a= re any stations still interested in that form of error correcting narrow ban= d data transfer and are still prepared to QSO with me.=20 Now retreating into my cave with my knuckles dragging along the ground.=20 Vy 73 petefmt=20 --- On Mon, 5/1/09, Alberto di Bene wrote: From: Alberto di Bene Subject: LF: Re: Silent majority To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Monday, 5 January, 2009, 12:05 AM Steve McDonald wrote: >> There is virtually nothing new to discover or invent that has not already >> taken place on MF. >=20 > There you go guys. You may as well stop your 600m experiments right now as > Mal has proclaimed that there is "nothing new to discover". Wouldn't it be > wonderful if we could all see the future as clearly as he apparently does. > What an amazing gift. >=20 > VE7SL / Steve This reminds me what Max Planck did write at the beginning of past century. At the turn of the 20th century scientists were absolutely certain that ther= e was nothing more to be discovered in theoretical physics. Max Planck, recalling the mood of optimism and conviction at that time, wrot= e: =E2=80=9CWhen I began my physical studies [in Munich in 1874] and sought adv= ice from my venerable teacher Phillipp von Jolly... he portrayed to me physics as a highly developed almost fully matured science.... Possibly in one or another nook there would perhaps be a dust particle or a small bubble to be examined and classified, but the system as a whole stood there fairly secured, and theoretical physics approached visibly that degree of perfection which, for example, geometry has had already for centuries=E2=80=9D. The history of physics during the 20th century did show how dumb was that point of view... 73 Alberto I2PHD =20 --0-30342817-1231408460=:12366 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Chris and LF
 
It seems every action has unintended consequences. In writing the mail=20= below I was trying to make a point about the escalating use of band width pe= r transmission. That Olivia thing is wide plus side bands, as Mal said. If y= ou or I started using it, it really would mess up the band for both of=20= us. Another mail said its OK because it is spread spectrum= therefore we would not notice it. That in my opinion is tosh because as we=20= both know I can read your key up signal (and probably you can read mine) whi= ch means an SS signal will have to be blooming small as not to be worth radi= ating not to be heard or interfere with local stations. People seem to be ca= rried away with modes that compete with each other like Wireless LAN etc but= the principal does not in IMHO compute when in proximity to other sing= le frequency Amateur Radio QSOing modes especially CW. That what I was=20= trying to say!
 
I take back any thing that I said that has offended you in any way and=20= please end your moratorium on 500kc/s activity. I did not want this unintend= ed result of my mail trying to support Mal.
 
This means I have had to retract nearly every thing I contributed on th= e support of narrow BW signals for 500kc/s. In future I will zip it!
 
I am sorry Adrian has dropped 500kc/s however he does come up on 80m an= d I bet he will not be able to resist listening and doing x band &= nbsp;contacts.   
 
73 petefmt Zipped!!!
 

--- On Thu, 8/1/09, Chris Osborn <g3xiz@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
From: Chris Osborn <g3xiz@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject= : LF: 500 kHz - Silent majority
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Date:= Thursday, 8 January, 2009, 9:02 AM

I deduce that my (fairly) frequent transmissions on MF may be causing
some annoyance and inconvenience to local stations.
 
Consequently I shall be QRT on 500 kHz for the remainder of this month.=
This will give local stations an opportunity to use a quiet band w= ithout
G3XIZ QRM.
 
I must report that sadly Adrian G4GDR has dismantled his MF equipment
and returned his N.O.V. to OfCom.
He was an active and keen MF operator and constructor but has lost inte= rest due
to lack of activity.
I for one will miss him.
 
73 Chris G3XIZ
 

 

From: Dave G3WCB <ganymed= e444@btopenworld.com>
To:<= /B> rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Sen= t: Monday, 5 January, 2009 22:22:55
Subject: RE: LF: Re: Silent majority

= =EF=BB=BF=20
Dear LF,
 
Geri DK8KW and Markus did some interesting slow-voice experiments on 1= 37 kHz a few years back.
 
Definitely not a DX-mode, and a bit of a bandwidth-gobbler too ;-= )
 
Follow the link below:-=20
 
=
 
73, Dave G3WCB IO91RM
 
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@bla= cksheep..org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]On Behalf Of = M0FMT
Sent: 05 January 2009 02:37
To: rsgb_lf_group@blac= ksheep..org
Subject: Re: LF: Re: Silent majority

Hi LF=20

Since by general consent the 600m band is now wide open for experiment= ation of whatever computer aided mode that can be down loaded for free off t= he Internet. Might I suggest the use of SSTV. They say a picture is worth a=20= 1000 words. I have thousands of holiday snaps I would like to share with the= world by way of a 24/7 beaconing experiment.  The result=20= may be a bit more interesting than the shopping lists of stations worked, eq= uipment lists and rig specifications that get churned out ad nauseam over the weeke= nds.=20

I am not sure what my afore mentioned local Amateur Radio 600m op frie= nds would feel being only a few miles away from my QTH.=20

No, the above suggestion is ridiculous. It does however, Einste= in, Planck et al withstanding, beg the question; what is a suitable maximum=20= bandwidth for the development of new modes on our British 3Kc/s 600m band? <= SPAN> I will start the ball rolling by saying a BW no more than=20= 50c/s. G3PLX managed with less than 32c/s BW. Since there is a QSB / QRN iss= ue on this band then hand shaking could be introduced to ensure error free d= ata transfer a bit like X25 slow but sure yet confined in a very narrow band= width say 50c/s max.  We need to think outside the box and= not try to shoe horn unsuitable modes onto 600m. To evoke names like Planck= and co with all due respect to Alberto (who I admire immensely for his grea= t innovations with DSP, SDR, FFT processing software) I think,  <= /SPAN>is over the top. Nobody is into book burning and denial of spectrum to impede progress but we only have 3kc/s to play with here in the= UK.  I consider myself a =E2=80=9Cgrunt=E2=80=9D operator= not a highflying =E2=80=9CEinstein=E2=80=9D radio spectrum quantum mechanic= , but I would hope we are trying to do more with less and I don=E2=80=99t th= ink Olivia is the answer. Whatever modes are proposed and developed, I would= expect one of the cardinal points in their specification, along with very n= arrow BW, to be compatibility with adjacent modes like CW and the effect on=20= adjacent stations not running that particular mode.=20

In the mean time I am hoping to improve my manual CW skills assuming t= here are any stations still interested in that form of error correcting narr= ow band data transfer and are still prepared to QSO with me.=20

Now retreating into my cave with my knuckles dragging along the ground= .=20

Vy 73 petefmt=20



--- On Mon, 5/1/09, Alberto di Bene <dibene@usa.= net> wrote:
From: Alberto di Bene <dibene@usa.net>
Subject= : LF: Re: Silent majority
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Date: Monda= y, 5 January, 2009, 12:05 AM

Steve McDonald wrote:
>> There is virtually nothing new to discover or invent that has not
already
>> taken place on MF.
>=20
> There you go guys. You may as well stop your 600m experiments right now=
 as
> Mal has proclaimed that there is "nothing new to discover".
Wouldn't it be
> wonderful if we could all see the future as clearly as he apparently do=
es.
> What an amazing gift.
>=20
> VE7SL / Steve

This reminds me what Max Planck did write at the beginning of past century.
At the turn of the 20th century scientists were absolutely certain that ther=
e
was nothing more to be discovered in theoretical physics.
Max Planck, recalling the mood of optimism and conviction at that time, wrot=
e:

=E2=80=9CWhen I began my physical studies [in Munich in 1874] and sought adv=
ice from
my venerable teacher Phillipp von Jolly... he portrayed to me physics as a
highly developed almost fully matured science.... Possibly in one or another
nook there would perhaps be a dust particle or a small bubble to be examined
and classified, but the system as a whole stood there fairly secured, and
theoretical physics approached visibly that degree of perfection which,
for example, geometry has had already for centuries=E2=80=9D.

The history of physics during the 20th century did show how dumb was that
point of view...

73  Alberto  I2PHD



=20 --0-30342817-1231408460=:12366--