Return-Path: Received: from rly-dg12.mx.aol.com (rly-dg12.mail.aol.com [172.19.151.96]) by air-dg01.mail.aol.com (v126.13) with ESMTP id MAILINDG014-60e4b2500c0e1; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 09:57:22 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by rly-dg12.mx.aol.com (v125.7) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINDG125-60e4b2500c0e1; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 09:57:06 -0500 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1NJpq6-0003l3-Vm for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 14:54:26 +0000 Received: from [83.244.159.144] (helo=relay3.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1NJpq5-0003ku-WD for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 14:54:26 +0000 Received: from smtp6.freeserve.com ([193.252.22.192]) by relay3.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NJpqe-0003JU-8a for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 14:55:02 +0000 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf3624.me.freeserve.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 8E88C700008B for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 15:54:52 +0100 (CET) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf3624.me.freeserve.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 826F8700008E for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 15:54:52 +0100 (CET) Received: from AGB (unknown [91.110.84.87]) by mwinf3624.me.freeserve.com (SMTP Server) with SMTP id BE968700008B for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 15:54:51 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20091213145451780.BE968700008B@mwinf3624.me.freeserve.com Message-ID: <6E7638745A1B43168C402CDBB010C2A7@AGB> From: "Graham" To: References: <9afca2640912091527s766a7e64wa10ad3be7c7f6f08@mail.gmail.com> <241919.87622.qm@web86503.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <9afca2640912130305r3acb5e5fs991caaa1115d2255@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <9afca2640912130305r3acb5e5fs991caaa1115d2255@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 14:54:51 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8089.726 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8089.726 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 Subject: Re: LF: 500kHz simple 5W TX/RX transverter >>DATA MODES<< Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01CA7C04.38F20920" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01CA7C04.38F20920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Roger, Either way the cct is nice way into 500 from hf , I have seen a= board marketed (possibly from Germany) that makes a stand-alone = xtal oscillator temperature controlled by simply bonding the heate= r board to the xtal can, the board having the heater and temperatu= re controller on it, a bit of polystyrene, one txco ! I think Gary sent me the link a while ago, when he was looking fo= r a stable signal source .... I'm not quite sure which is the more= difficult route ..diy or ex-military .. may be the 'slog factor'= is the same , diy takes a long time coming , while the ex-military= route is fine till it falls over .. then takes a long time mendin= g .. hi I would think the ft817 is quite stable , what is the master oscill= ator frequency, ? it may be over 28 mhz , in which case the drift= may be only fractionally dependant on the change of frequency ..im= my ft897 the mo is running on 67.87 MHz , so a change from 28= to 10 would result in a minimal improvement.=20 G ..=20 From: Roger Lapthorn=20 Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 11:05 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: 500kHz simple 5W TX/RX transverter >>DATA MODES<< Yes, 10MHz would be a better choice. I used 28MHz as it allowed both= 136 and 500kHz transversion (is that a real word?) from within a sing= le ham band with the same transverter (apart from PA filter) with a ha= m band only TX radio like the FT817. Using a TXCO of course would be= an added aid to stability. The transverter unit was going to be finally boxed yesterday but we ha= ve been "grandson sitting" this weekend as mum and dad are poorly and= now my wife has gone done with the same tummy bug as well! 73s Roger G3XBM 2009/12/10 ALAN MELIA Hi Roger yes you are right of course its the drift within a qso peri= od or even an over that is most important. Very Good. I wonder whether the use of 10MHz as an "IF" would be a possibility?= This would allow readily available TCXOs or even OCXOs to be used for= the LO. I guess the split should be enough to allow your filter/diple= xor to work. It obviously only removes one source of drift, one cant= do much about the 817, but that also should be less at 10MHz? Alan G3NYK --- On Wed, 9/12/09, Roger Lapthorn wrote: > From: Roger Lapthorn > Subject: Re: LF: 500kHz simple 5W TX/RX transverter >>DATA MODES<< > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Date: Wednesday, 9 December, 2009, 23:27 > With the transverter "in the > open" (rat's nest) on the desktop there is a > warm-up drift of about 40Hz HF until things settle down. > This has not been an issue with WSPR as the drift in a > single TX slot is only about 1-2Hz usually (WSPR copes with > this) and it soon settles down to 0Hz drift. I have not > tried QRSS but imagine you'd have to ensure the xtal > oscillator is made more thermally stable for v.slow QRSS, > but would guess it would be OK for some moderate QRSS > operation. Putting the whole unit in a box should help. > > > My little circuit works, but is surely capable of much > improvement, HI. > > 73s > Roger G3XBM > > 2009/12/9 ALAN MELIA > > Sounds good Roger and Graham... > what it the stability like the problem with > transverters/upconverters normally is that while ok for some > modes they are often not stable enough for the very weak > signal modes. These are modes where you need to know the > frequency of a station very accurately because you will not > hear it, or it will only pop above the noise for short > periods. > > > > > Alan G3NYK > > > > > > --- On Wed, 9/12/09, Graham > wrote: > > > > > From: Graham > > > Subject: LF: 500kHz simple 5W TX/RX transverter > >>DATA MODES<< > > > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > > > Date: Wednesday, 9 December, 2009, 22:13 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All > > > > > > This latest > > > addition to the > > > HF / MF tx convertor opens the door > > > to data > > > communications on 500 ... ranging from > > > 'all' the K1JT systems > > > through to the single carrier > > > multi tone > > > systems of > > > MFSK , DOMINO and THOR .. even > > > the almost > > > forgotten Amtor-arq and Packtor modes , anyone > > > still have > > > there pk232 > > > > > > listed are > > > data modes that may be used with > > > non-linear systems :- > > > > > > > > > http://groups.google.com/group/uk500khz/web/meat-grinder-comms > > > > > > G.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Roger > > > Lapthorn > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 12:20 AM > > > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > > > > > > > > > Subject: LF: 500kHz simple 5W TX/RX > > > transverter > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > My WSPR tx up-converter has now been modified to > > > a full TX/RX tranverter suitable for WSPR, QRSS and > > > CW in a > > > very simple way, making use of the FT817 split > > > facility which allows you > > > to RX on 500kHz and TX on 28MHz. By adding a series > LC > > > between the TX PA and the > > > FT817 input/output RF connection (with back-to-back > diodes > > > at the L and C > > > junction, this allows "pass through" from > the > > > 500kHz ATU to the FT817 on RX > > > (tuned to 500kHz). On TX, the diodes conduct and the C > part > > > is in parallel with > > > the first cap in the TX low pass filter. This scheme > is now > > > working really well > > > with good RX sensitivity and no change in TX power > out. > > > > > > Schematic of the > > > transverter is on my blog at http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ > > > . My > > > attempt to add it as an attachment to an email here > earlier > > > failed. > > > > > > This more or less concludes my 500kHz experimenting, > apart > > > from > > > getting a few more CW QSOs in the log. It's been > great > > > fun all the way with lots > > > of support from folks here. I was going to try 136kHz, > but > > > think I will now give > > > this a miss for now. > > > > > > 73s > > > Roger G3XBM > > > -- > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > > http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ > > > http://www.g3xbm.co.uk > > > G3XBM > > > GQRP 1678 ISWL G11088 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------- > http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ > http://www.g3xbm.co.uk > > G3XBM GQRP 1678 ISWL G11088 > > --=20 ------------------------------------------------------------- http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ http://www.g3xbm.co.uk G3XBM GQRP 1678 ISWL G11088 ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01CA7C04.38F20920 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Roger,
 
Either  way the  cct is nic= e way=20 into  500  from hf , I have  seen a  board markete= d =20 (possibly from Germany) that makes a  stand-alone  xtal=20 oscillator  temperature  controlled by simply bonding the&nb= sp; heater=20 board to the  xtal can, the  board having the  heater= and =20 temperature controller  on it, a bit  of polystyrene,= one =20 txco !
 
I think  Gary  sent me the&= nbsp; link=20 a  while ago, when he was looking  for a  stable signal= source=20 .... I'm not  quite  sure which is the more  difficult= route=20 ..diy or  ex-military .. may be the  'slog factor' is= the =20 same , diy takes a long time coming , while the  ex-military rout= e=20 is fine till it  falls  over .. then takes a = long=20 time  mending  .. hi
 
I would think the  ft817 is quit= e  stable=20 , what is the  master oscillator  frequency, ? it may be ove= r 28 =20 mhz , in which case the  drift may be only fractionally dependant= on=20 the  change  of frequency ..im my  ft897  the = ; mo is=20 running on  67.87 MHz , so a  change  from 28 to = 10 =20 would  result in a  minimal improvement.
 
G ..
 
 

Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: LF: 500kHz simple 5W TX/RX transverter >&g= t;DATA=20 MODES<<

Yes, 10MHz would be a better choice. I used 28MHz as it= allowed=20 both 136 and 500kHz transversion (is that a real word?) from within a= single ham=20 band with the same transverter (apart from PA filter) with a ham band= only TX=20 radio like the FT817. Using a TXCO of course would be an added aid to= =20 stability.

The transverter unit was going to be finally boxed= yesterday=20 but we have been "grandson sitting" this weekend as mum and dad are po= orly and=20 now my wife has gone done with the same tummy bug as well!

73s<= BR>Roger=20 G3XBM


2009/12/10 ALAN MELIA <alan.melia@btinternet.com= >
Hi Roger= yes you are right of course its the drift within a=20 qso period or even an over that is most important. Very Good.
I wonder=20 whether the use of 10MHz as an "IF" would be a possibility? This wou= ld allow=20 readily available TCXOs or even OCXOs to be used for the LO. I guess= the split=20 should be enough to allow your filter/diplexor to work. It obviously= only=20 removes one source of drift, one cant do much about the 817, but tha= t also=20 should be less at 10MHz?

Alan G3NYK

--- On Wed, 9/12/0= 9, Roger=20 Lapthorn <rogerlap= thorn@gmail.com>=20 wrote:

> From: Roger Lapthorn <rogerlapthorn@gmail.com>
>=20 Subject: Re: LF: 500kHz simple 5W TX/RX transverter >>DATA=20 MODES<<
> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
>=20 Date: Wednesday, 9 December, 2009, 23:27
> With the transverter "in the
> open" (rat= 's nest) on=20 the desktop there is a
> warm-up drift of about 40Hz HF until= things=20 settle down.
> This has not been an issue with WSPR as the dri= ft in=20 a
> single TX slot is only about 1-2Hz usually (WSPR copes wit= h
>=20 this) and it soon settles down to 0Hz drift. I have not
> trie= d QRSS but=20 imagine you'd have to ensure the xtal
> oscillator is made mor= e=20 thermally stable for v.slow QRSS,
> but would guess it would= be OK for=20 some moderate QRSS
> operation. Putting the whole unit in a bo= x should=20 help.
>
>
> My little circuit works, but is surely= capable=20 of much
> improvement, HI.
>
> 73s
> Roger= =20 G3XBM
>
> 2009/12/9 ALAN MELIA <alan.melia@btinternet.com>
><= BR>>=20 Sounds good Roger and Graham...
> what it the stability like= the problem=20 with
> transverters/upconverters normally is that while ok for= =20 some
> modes they are  often not stable enough for the ve= ry=20 weak
> signal modes. These are modes where you need to know th= e
>=20 frequency of a station very accurately because you will not
>= hear it,=20 or it will only pop above the noise for short
>=20 periods.
>
>
>
>
> Alan=20 G3NYK
>
>
>
>
>
> --- On Wed, 9/= 12/09,=20 Graham <g8fzk@g8fz= k.fsnet.co.uk>
>=20 wrote:
>
>
>
> > From: Graham <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk&= gt;
>
>=20 > Subject: LF: 500kHz simple 5W TX/RX transverter
> >>= ;DATA=20 MODES<<
>
> > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
>
>= ;=20 > Date: Wednesday, 9 December, 2009, 22:13
>
>=20 >
>
> >
>
> >
>
>=20 >
>
> >
>
> >
>
>=20 >
>
> > All
>
> >
>
>= > This=20  latest
>
> > addition to  the
>
&= gt; >=20 HF / MF  tx convertor  opens the  door
>
>= ; > to=20  data
>
> > communications  on 500 ... rang= ing=20  from
>
> > 'all'  the K1JT systems
>=
>=20 > through to  the  single carrier
>
> >= multi=20  tone
>
> > systems  of
>
> >= ; MFSK=20  ,  DOMINO and THOR  .. even
>
> > the= =20  almost
>
> > forgotten  Amtor-arq  an= d Packtor=20 modes , anyone
>
> > still  have
>
>= >=20 there pk232
>
> >
>
> > listed=20  are
>
> > data  modes that  may be &n= bsp;used=20 with
>
> > non-linear systems :-
>
>=20 >
>
> >
>
> > http://groups.google.com/group/uk500khz/web/meat-grinder-com= ms
>
>=20 >
>
> > G..
>
> >
>
>= =20 >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >= From:=20 Roger
>
> > Lapthorn
>
> > Sent: Tuesd= ay,=20 December 08, 2009 12:20 AM
>
> > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
>=20 >
>
> >
>
> > Subject: LF: 500kHz= simple 5W=20 TX/RX
>
> > transverter
>
> >
><= BR>>=20 > Dear All,
>
> >
>
> > My WSPR tx= =20 up-converter has now been modified to
>
> > a full TX= /RX=20 tranverter suitable for WSPR, QRSS and
>
> > CW  = ;in=20 a
>
> > very simple way, making use of the FT817=20 split
>
> > facility which allows you
>
>= > to=20 RX on 500kHz and TX on 28MHz. By adding a series
> LC
><= BR>>=20 > between the TX PA and the
>
> > FT817 input/outp= ut RF=20 connection (with back-to-back
> diodes
>
> > at= the L and=20 C
>
> > junction, this allows "pass through" from
= >=20 the
>
> > 500kHz ATU to the FT817 on RX
>
&g= t; >=20 (tuned to 500kHz). On TX, the diodes conduct and the C
>=20 part
>
> > is in parallel with
>
> >= the first=20 cap in the TX low pass filter. This scheme
> is now
>> >=20 working really well
>
> > with good RX sensitivity an= d no=20 change in TX power
> out.
>
> >
>
>= >=20 Schematic of the
>
> > transverter is on my blog at= ht= tp://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/
>
> > .=20 My
>
> > attempt to add it as an attachment to an ema= il=20 here
> earlier
>
> > failed.
>
>=20 >
>
> > This more or less concludes my 500kHz=20 experimenting,
> apart
>
> > from
>
&g= t; >=20 getting a few more CW QSOs in the log. It's been
> great
&g= t;
>=20 > fun all the way with lots
>
> > of support from= folks=20 here. I was going to try 136kHz,
> but
>
> > th= ink I will=20 now give
>
> > this a miss for now.
>
>= =20 >
>
> > 73s
>
> > Roger G3XBM
&g= t;
>=20 > --
>
> >
>
> >
>=20 -------------------------------------------------------------
>= ;
>=20 > = http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/
>
> > http://www.g3xbm.co.uk
>
> >=20 G3XBM
>
> >  GQRP 1678      ISWL= =20 G11088
>
> >
>
> >
>
>=20 >
>
> >
>
>=20 >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
&= gt;=20 -------------------------------------------------------------
>= ; h= ttp://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/
> http://www.g3xbm.co.uk
>
&= gt; G3XBM  =20  GQRP 1678      ISWL=20 G11088
>
>



--=20
-------------------------------------------------------------
<= A href=3D"http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/">http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.= com/
http://www.g3xbm.co.u= k
G3XBM  =20  GQRP 1678      ISWL G11088


------=_NextPart_000_0017_01CA7C04.38F20920--