Return-Path: X-Spam-DCC: paranoid 1181; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by paranoid.lipkowski.org (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id t8UDcWWx013270 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 15:38:32 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1ZhHXD-0004H4-NY for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 14:35:03 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1ZhHXD-0004Gv-7x for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 14:35:03 +0100 Received: from smtpout2.wanadoo.co.uk ([80.12.242.42] helo=smtpout.wanadoo.co.uk) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1ZhHW9-0000Aa-2K for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 14:35:02 +0100 Received: from AGB ([95.150.81.39]) by mwinf5d24 with ME id PRZi1r0060qtyRb03RZirx; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 15:33:43 +0200 X-ME-Helo: AGB X-ME-Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 15:33:43 +0200 X-ME-IP: 95.150.81.39 Message-ID: <6E3C9A4C7FBD47B7B3B176CD4A2A907A@AGB> From: "Graham" To: References: <579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB1B2153E8@servigilant.vigilant.local> In-Reply-To: <579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB1B2153E8@servigilant.vigilant.local> Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 14:33:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 X-Scan-Signature: ab4137e80fe4a5b8ed9ec070c056a642 Subject: Re: LF: Re: 23:35 477 EA5DOM de EB3FRN Op8 Deep Search -36 dB1489.0 Hz Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0040_01D0FB8D.011E2E20" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 10.1.3.10 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4226 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01D0FB8D.011E2E20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Very unlikely Luis=20 I work on efficiency about 1:500 for the 40x60 ft inv L , a low = thin loop , may be 1:000 or less , at gb4fpr , there was 600 ft in = 200x200x200 triangle at 90 feet abv ground , that produced a = similar signal 25 miles east , as did my home station=20 The levels over the 200 mile sea path are quite low , but the loop = will make a good ground to tune the vertical against ! 73-G,=20 =20 From: VIGILANT Luis Fern=E1ndez=20 Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2015 1:44 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: RE: LF: Re: 23:35 477 EA5DOM de EB3FRN Op8 Deep Search -36 = dB1489.0 Hz Hi Stefan, MF I have been calculating the loop area with the help of Google Earth. Not = a regular shape but counting on the known perimeter and measures it can be estimated as 224 m2 I detect the RF current with this circuit from G4HUP but have not = calibrated it http://g4hup.com/RFC/RF%20Current%20Meter%20Kit%20V2_0.pdf I don't use the meter and R3, VR1, VR2 and directly wire down the shack = the output from rectifier diode and use an analog voltmeter. The transformer is made in the same way with a ferrite clamp = over loop wire and 10 turns as secondary The 2x100R load was using 1/2w resistors and burned out when using the = PA. So changed them to 2x5W resistors On the volmeter I can get 60V dc when the antenna is tuned (minimum PA = DC current). The 5W resistors still stand !=20 I'm using 800pF fixed caps and 490pF variable at about mid value to = resonate the loop. Bandwith is sharp but lets me work WSPR and Opera. So lets assume 3KHz Have changed some parameters in Andy's Excel. Sized it down as a 17m = diameter loop to match 224m2 loop area Power down to 75W which is what I get with PA under 50ohm. Conductor = diameter 5mm, not 6mm (great difference) And it reports 1dBW ERP with 11A and 2904V Can it be that high ? Probably less due to mismatch in the feeding = transformer Nice ERP but in the wrong direction, I'm afraid :( 73 de Luis EA5DOM=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- De: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] En nombre de DK7FC Enviado el: mi=E9rcoles, 30 de septiembre de 2015 13:25 Para: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Asunto: Re: LF: Re: 23:35 477 EA5DOM de EB3FRN Op8 Deep Search -36 = dB1489.0 Hz Hi Luis. What is the loop RF current and the loop area? Do you know it? Is it problematic to match the loop? You just need a C and a ferrite = transformer. If you have such a relatively high perimeter, you probably = need about 1 nF to resonate it? Currents may be in the range of 10A at = 100W? A bandwidth of maybe 3 kHz? 73, Stefan Am 30.09.2015 11:14, schrieb VIGILANT Luis Fern=E1ndez:=20 Hi MF Probably not 2mW ERP Stefan ;-) Have to reconfigure my U3 but really don't know which ERP I'm getting = right now The PA outputs 60V RMS under 50Ohm load, but the loop is not an ideal = load and I can tune it to about 80V RMS. When detuned, RMS runs up to >>100V and PA gets into = problems I tried to get loop performance using Andy G4JNT excel and this is = what I got = https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7162072/Fotos%20varias/MF/70m%20MF%20= Loop%20at%20100W%20.png Probably many things wrong there What I use is a 70m perimeter loop made from RG59 coax (braid and = inner shorted on ends) but not a round circle The resonate cap is very close to what I need to tuneit. So the = "equivalent" round loop diameter should be 21m=20 Go figure ! :-) One detail to mention: Yesterday, it rained. Not very usual here and still not tested the = loop with this Tx power and with wet terrace It seems to me that my signals was better than before. Could the wet = terrace worked as a kind of reflector or re-shapped the radiation diagram of the horizontal loop making it more = efficient for Dx ?? The loop is not equidistant from terrace but keeps about 3 to 4 meter = high, and just 1m on the feeding point 73 de Luis EA5DOM -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- De: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] En nombre de DK7FC Enviado el: mi=E9rcoles, 30 de septiembre de 2015 10:18 Para: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Asunto: Re: LF: Re: 23:35 477 EA5DOM de EB3FRN Op8 Deep Search -36 = dB1489.0 Hz Hi Luis,=20 Ooh, very well! I'm glad that i received you the first time! Is it = really 2 mW ERP? Oh and BTW it was in WSPR, the super mode!!!! ;-) 73, Stefan Am 30.09.2015 00:17, schrieb VIGILANT Luis Fern=E1ndez:=20 Even with the loop we are on the way ;-)=20 2015-09-29 22:00 EA5DOM 0.475611 -27 0 IM98wn = 0.002 DK7FC/P JN49ik 1398 27=20 =20 73 de Luis EA5DOM -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- De: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] en nombre de DK7FC = [selberdenken@posteo.de] Enviado: lunes, 28 de septiembre de 2015 21:47 Para: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Asunto: Re: LF: Re: 23:35 477 EA5DOM de EB3FRN Op8 Deep Search -36 = dB1489.0 Hz Am 28.09.2015 17:02, schrieb VIGILANT Luis Fern=E1ndez:=20 [...]=20 Next in the list is going vertical. Coil and variometer on the = way. Keep tuned ;-) 73 de Luis EA5DOM Oh yes! Do it!!! :-) Looking forward to a QSO :-) 73, Stefan ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01D0FB8D.011E2E20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Very unlikely Luis
 
I work on efficiency  about   1:500  = for =20 the   40x60 ft  inv L  , a low  thin = loop , may=20 be  1:000  or less , at gb4fpr , there  was  600 ft = in=20 200x200x200  triangle  at  90 feet abv  ground = , =20 that  produced  a  similar signal   25 =20 miles  east , as did  my  home  station
 
The  levels  over the  200 mile  sea path are = quite low=20 ,  but the  loop  will  make a  good  = ground =20 to  tune the  vertical  against !
 
73-G,
 

 
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2015 1:44 PM
Subject: RE: LF: Re: 23:35 477 EA5DOM de EB3FRN Op8 Deep = Search -36=20 dB1489.0 Hz

Hi Stefan, MF
 
I have been calculating the loop area with the = help of Google=20 Earth. Not a regular shape but counting on the known=20 perimeter
and measures it can be estimated as 224=20 m2
 
I detect the RF current with this circuit from = G4HUP but have=20 not calibrated it
http:= //g4hup.com/RFC/RF%20Current%20Meter%20Kit%20V2_0.pdf
I don't use the meter and R3, VR1, VR2 and = directly wire down=20 the shack the output from rectifier diode and use an = analog
voltmeter. The transformer is made in the same way = with a=20 ferrite clamp over loop wire and 10 turns as = secondary
The 2x100R load was using 1/2w resistors and = burned out when=20 using the PA. So changed them to 2x5W resistors
On the volmeter I can get 60V dc when the antenna = is tuned=20 (minimum PA DC current). The 5W resistors still stand ! =
 
I'm using 800pF fixed caps and 490pF variable at = about mid=20 value to resonate the loop. Bandwith is sharp but lets me=20 work
WSPR and Opera. So lets assume = 3KHz
 
Have changed some parameters in Andy's Excel. = Sized it down as=20 a 17m diameter loop to match 224m2 loop area
Power down to 75W which is what I get with = PA under=20 50ohm. Conductor diameter 5mm, not 6mm (great = difference)
And it reports 1dBW ERP with 11A and = 2904V
 
Can it be that high ? Probably less due to = mismatch in the=20 feeding transformer
 
Nice ERP but in the wrong direction, I'm afraid=20 :(
 
73 de Luis
EA5DOM 

De: = owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] En nombre de=20 DK7FC
Enviado el: mi=E9rcoles, 30 de septiembre de 2015=20 13:25
Para: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Asunto: Re: = LF: Re:=20 23:35 477 EA5DOM de EB3FRN Op8 Deep Search -36 dB1489.0 = Hz

Hi Luis.

What is the loop RF current and the loop = area? Do you=20 know it?
Is it problematic to match the loop? You just need a C and a = ferrite=20 transformer. If you have such a relatively high perimeter, you probably = need=20 about 1 nF to resonate it? Currents may be in the range of 10A at 100W? = A=20 bandwidth of maybe 3 kHz?

73, Stefan

Am 30.09.2015 11:14, = schrieb=20 VIGILANT Luis Fern=E1ndez:=20
Hi MF
 
Probably not 2mW ERP Stefan = ;-)
 
Have to reconfigure my U3 but really don't know = which ERP=20 I'm getting right now
The PA outputs 60V RMS under 50Ohm load, but the = loop is not=20 an ideal load and I can tune it
to about 80V RMS. When detuned, RMS runs up to = >>100V=20 and PA gets into problems
 
I tried to get loop performance using Andy G4JNT = excel and=20 this is what I got
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7162072/Foto= s%20varias/MF/70m%20MF%20Loop%20at%20100W%20.png
 
Probably many things wrong = there
What I use is a 70m perimeter loop made = from RG59 coax=20 (braid and inner shorted on ends) but not a round = circle
The resonate cap is very close to what I need to = tuneit.=20 So the "equivalent" round loop diameter should be=20 21m 
Go figure ! = :-)
 
One detail to=20 mention:
Yesterday, it rained. Not very usual here = and still=20 not tested the loop with this Tx power and with wet=20 terrace
It seems to me that my signals was better = than=20 before. Could the wet terrace worked as a kind of reflector=20 or
re-shapped the radiation diagram of the = horizontal=20 loop making it more efficient for Dx = ??
 
The loop is not equidistant from terrace = but keeps=20 about 3 to 4 meter high, and just 1m on the feeding=20 point
 
73 de = Luis
EA5DOM

De: owner-rsgb_lf_group@bl= acksheep.org=20 [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_g= roup@blacksheep.org]=20 En nombre de DK7FC
Enviado el: mi=E9rcoles, 30 de = septiembre de=20 2015 10:18
Para: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=
Asunto:=20 Re: LF: Re: 23:35 477 EA5DOM de EB3FRN Op8 Deep Search -36 dB1489.0=20 Hz

Hi Luis,

Ooh, very well! I'm glad that = i=20 received you the first time! Is it really 2 mW ERP?
Oh and BTW it = was in=20 WSPR, the super mode!!!! ;-)

73, Stefan

Am 30.09.2015 = 00:17,=20 schrieb VIGILANT Luis Fern=E1ndez:=20 Even=20 with the loop we are on the way ;-)=20

 2015-09-29 22:00   EA5DOM   0.475611   -27   0   IM98wn   0.002   DK7FC/P   JN49ik   1398   27 

73 de Luis
EA5DOM
De: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] en = nombre de=20 DK7FC [selberdenken@posteo.de]
Enviado: = lunes,=20 28 de septiembre de 2015 21:47
Para: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Asunto:=20 Re: LF: Re: 23:35 477 EA5DOM de EB3FRN Op8 Deep Search -36 dB1489.0=20 Hz


Am 28.09.2015 17:02, schrieb VIGILANT Luis Fern=E1ndez:=20
[...]=20
 
Next in the list is going vertical. Coil and = variometer on the=20 way. Keep tuned ;-)
 
73 de = Luis
EA5DOM


Oh = yes! Do=20 it!!! :-) Looking forward to a QSO :-)

73,=20 = Stefan
------=_NextPart_000_0040_01D0FB8D.011E2E20--