Return-Path: X-Spam-DCC: paranoid 1102; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL, FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by paranoid.lipkowski.org (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id t4TFpU5O028460 for ; Fri, 29 May 2015 17:51:30 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1YyMWG-0005Pv-Kt for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Fri, 29 May 2015 16:48:24 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1YyMWF-0005Pm-Tb for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 29 May 2015 16:48:23 +0100 Received: from rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk ([65.20.0.183]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1YyMWD-0006Bk-E5 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 29 May 2015 16:48:22 +0100 X-OWM-Source-IP: 81.129.179.60(GB) X-OWM-Env-Sender: alan.melia@btinternet.com X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A090205.55688A44.0066,ss=1,re=0.000,recu=0.000,reip=0.000,cl=1,cld=1,fgs=0 X-Junkmail-Premium-Raw: score=39/50,refid=2.7.2:2015.5.29.94816:17:39.532,ip=81.129.179.60,rules=__HAS_MSGID, __SANE_MSGID, MSGID_32HEX_LC, INVALID_MSGID_NO_FQDN, __MSGID_32HEX, __HAS_FROM, __PHISH_FROM2, __FRAUD_WEBMAIL_FROM, __TO_MALFORMED_2, __TO_NO_NAME, __REFERENCES, __BOUNCE_CHALLENGE_SUBJ, __BOUNCE_NDR_SUBJ_EXEMPT, __MIME_VERSION, __CT, __CTYPE_MULTIPART_ALT, __CTYPE_HAS_BOUNDARY, __CTYPE_MULTIPART, __HAS_X_PRIORITY, __HAS_MSMAIL_PRI, __HAS_X_MAILER, USER_AGENT_OE, __OUTLOOK_MUA_1, __USER_AGENT_MS_GENERIC, __ANY_URI, LINK_TO_IMAGE, __FRAUD_BODY_WEBMAIL, __CP_URI_IN_BODY, __C230066_P2, __STOCK_PHRASE_7, __SUBJ_ALPHA_NEGATE, SUPERLONG_LINE, __HAS_HTML, BODY_SIZE_10000_PLUS, BODYTEXTP_SIZE_3000_LESS, BODYTEXTH_SIZE_10000_LESS, __MIME_HTML, __IMGSPAM_TABLE_1, __TAG_EXISTS_HTML, RDNS_GENERIC_POOLED, __URI_NS, SXL_IP_DYNAMIC[60.179.129.81.fur], HTML_70_90, RDNS_SUSP_GENERIC, IMGSPAM_TABLE_1, __PHISH_FROM, __OUTLOOK_MUA, RDNS_SUSP, __FRAUD_WEBMAIL, FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK, REFERENCES X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown Received: from gnat (81.129.179.60) by rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk (8.6.122.06) (authenticated as alan.melia@btinternet.com) id 55683B3A000D6F88 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 29 May 2015 16:48:20 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btinternet.com; s=btcpcloud; t=1432914501; bh=DoRjxys7Ea/UB40SKB1t/WgkAM7ojvO27dOo73hSj1I=; h=Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:X-Mailer; b=kHq9IfHXhf71YEG+WQNIAuqM/9TigzUBItFPCZVnIZ6KrXpMyL2qgwdpBNslUZEWp8yGvkaz71AnvNpgNLdSur7qicrj7zw8+ZruOx84Vu9vaSn2/8pUy77Ur0ZH3AGiSBD7xsa79pajoGvTDmrQSa2svmxbKHYMXtCS2tH/SvU= Message-ID: <64B603B8C45F4AB69E3C3E019DDF2FB3@gnat> From: "Alan Melia" To: References: <36803B9BBF51425C9C081F1B940B4B32@F6CNIToshiba> Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 16:45:50 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Scan-Signature: caa2bbf6eb61e70e03599bec833fb637 Subject: LF: Re: Antennas on low bands : the Siegel and Labus books. Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0028_01D09A2E.EB56C5D0" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 10.1.3.10 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3345 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01D09A2E.EB56C5D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Andre my experience is that the designers of LF antennas for = professional use have different objectives to us amateurs. Whilst the = ideas are interesting and instructive they dont all work when crushed = into a normal amateur environment. The low frequency effects tend = exaggerate this difference.=20 Modelling using NEC2 doesn't always work either because some parameters = that affect amateur situations are not included in the model. It is = particularly poor on ground conditions, though with a degree of cynicism = and practical know-how the results can be interesting. Measurement is = the only way to get it right, that takes everything into account. Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Guy=E9 Andr=E9=20 To: RSGB LF Group=20 Sent: Friday, May 29, 2015 4:19 PM Subject: LF: Antennas on low bands : the Siegel and Labus books. Hi to all.=20 I see that many questions are on the LF reflector about antennas on = low bands, modeling and concerning the lobe formation zones (Fresnel, = Fraunhofer and Rayleigh). On the way, that explain why IUT is using the = E.I.R.P. as standard of power. The best study is coming from the 1940 years from Labus and Siegel. No = reference in Internet on their first original study. In the 1983 years I = was studying about that and I found one of the four exemplary in the = world (one in the Bordeaux university library - France, others in = Sweden, Italy (?) and UK ( ?)).=20 But others later publications of Labus and Siegel are on the net, here = : = https://books.google.fr/books?id=3DQjYtNJZmWLEC&pg=3DPA563&lpg=3DPA563&dq= =3Dsiegel+and+labus&source=3Dbl&ots=3DXr7QCsMw-Y&sig=3D81O1Oa4r2UULnGPKyV= 44Uvuq1RI&hl=3Dfr&sa=3DX&ei=3DxHpoVeuqEaW9ygOPt4KACQ&ved=3D0CEAQ6AEwBA#v=3D= onepage&q=3Dsiegel%20and%20labus&f=3Dfalse = http://puhep1.princeton.edu/~mcdonald/examples/schelkunoff_procire_29_493= _41.pdf 73. Andy F6CNI. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- L'absence de virus dans ce courrier =E9lectronique a =E9t=E9 = v=E9rifi=E9e par le logiciel antivirus Avast.=20 www.avast.com=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01D09A2E.EB56C5D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Andre my experience is that the = designers=20 of LF antennas for professional use have different objectives to us = amateurs. Whilst the ideas are interesting and instructive they dont all = work=20 when crushed into a normal amateur environment. The low frequency = effects tend=20 exaggerate this difference.
 
Modelling using NEC2 doesn't always = work=20 either because some parameters that affect amateur situations are = not=20 included in the model. It is particularly poor on ground conditions, = though with=20 a degree of cynicism and practical know-how the results can be = interesting.=20 Measurement is the only way to get it right, that takes everything into=20 account.
 
Alan
G3NYK
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Guy=E9=20 Andr=E9
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2015 4:19 = PM
Subject: LF: Antennas on low = bands : the=20 Siegel and Labus books.

Hi to all.

 

I see that many = questions are on=20 the LF reflector about antennas on low bands, modeling and concerning = the lobe=20 formation zones (Fresnel, Fraunhofer and Rayleigh). On the way, = that=20 explain why IUT is using the E.I.R.P. as standard of = power.

 

The best study is = coming from=20 the 1940 years from Labus and Siegel. No reference in = Internet=20 on their first original study. In the 1983 years I was studying about = that and=20 I found one of the four exemplary in the world (one in the Bordeaux = university=20 library - France, others in Sweden, Italy (?) and UK ( ?)). =

 

But others later = publications of=20 Labus and Siegel are on the net, here :

 

https://books.google.fr/books?id=3DQjYtNJZmWL= EC&pg=3DPA563&lpg=3DPA563&dq=3Dsiegel+and+labus&source=3D= bl&ots=3DXr7QCsMw-Y&sig=3D81O1Oa4r2UULnGPKyV44Uvuq1RI&hl=3Dfr= &sa=3DX&ei=3DxHpoVeuqEaW9ygOPt4KACQ&ved=3D0CEAQ6AEwBA#v=3Done= page&q=3Dsiegel%20and%20labus&f=3Dfalse

 

http://puhep1.princeton.edu/~mcdonald/examples/schelkuno= ff_procire_29_493_41.pdf

 

73. Andy = F6CNI.

 



3D"Avast = L'absence=20 de virus dans ce courrier =E9lectronique a =E9t=E9 v=E9rifi=E9e = par le logiciel=20 antivirus Avast.
www.avast.com=20


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