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Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 16:34:21 +0200
From: DK7FC <selberdenken@posteo.de>
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To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
References: <2094456453.3003296.1555358572044.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2094456453.3003296.1555358572044@mail.yahoo.com>
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Content preview: RR Markus, thanks. Yes, 1.65 kHz is on the list. BTW the message
has been decoded from the data of IK1QFK, with > 14 dB SNR. But more later.
73, Stefan Am 15.04.2019 22:02, schrieb Markus Vester: > Hi Stefan, > > >
Do you have an idea why the E-W cardioid result is worse than from > the
E field alone? > > Looking at https://vlf.u01.de/VLFgrabber/vlf9 [...]
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Subject: Re: ULF: Ground loop night transmission 3.0
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RR Markus, thanks.
Yes, 1.65 kHz is on the list.
BTW the message has been decoded from the data of IK1QFK, with > 14 dB
SNR. But more later.
73, Stefan
Am 15.04.2019 22:02, schrieb Markus Vester:
> Hi Stefan,
>
> > Do you have an idea why the E-W cardioid result is worse than from
> the E field alone?
>
> Looking at https://vlf.u01.de/VLFgrabber/vlf9.jpg we find that the
> noise grew much more on the earth loop (top) than on the E-field
> (bottom). One reason may be that our earth antennas pick up more 50 Hz
> harmonics - these won't interfere with your QRG directly but may raise
> the noise blanker threshold and make spherics blanking less effective.
> We could also speculate about spherics with steep incidence angle,
> albeit you were more or less in the middle between 1st and 2nd
> vertical tweek resonances (1.65 and 3.3 kHz). Anyway the SNR ratio
> between H to E seems to be similar to your receivers.
>
> Of course skywave components may also have a direct effect on your
> signal but I don't know whether that would have been positive or
> negative, or in which way to extrapolate downwards. I'm very curious
> what would come out of a 1.65 kHz transmission during a quiet night.
>
> > Which carrier S/N do you get from the E field?
>
> Decoder output "carrier S/N 24.31 dB in 128.6 uHz" - should be related
> to carrier Eb/N0 by adding 10 log (ncharacters * 5.7).
>
> Best 73,
> Markus
>
>
> -----UrsprĂźngliche Mitteilung-----
> Von: DK7FC <selberdenken@posteo.de>
> An: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
> Verschickt: Mo, 15. Apr. 2019 10:32
> Betreff: Re: ULF: Ground loop night transmission 3.0
>
> Hello Markus, ULF,
>
> Very well. Thanks for your decodes and for sharing the night :-)
> Do you have an idea why the E-W cardioid result is worse than from the
> E field alone?
> Which carrier S/N do you get from the E field? I'm getting carrier
> S/N: 40.62 dB in 128.6 uHz, 1.71 dB in 1Hz
> The difference of our carrier Eb/N0 is 16.3 dB. But as Paul mentioned,
> camparing carrier S/N may be more accurate in that spectrum range.
> It could be interesting to compare the SNR difference between our
> locations over some frequencies. If that value is reasonable constant,
> in the far field, then we could estimate what we can expect at 970 Hz...
> My results from all 3 antennas are still looking good at that frequency:
> E field: carrier S/N: 40.62 dB in 128.6 uHz
> N-S loop: carrier S/N: 28.38 dB in 128.6 uHz
> E-W loop: carrier S/N: 30.47 dB in 128.6 uHz
>
> 73, Stefan
>
>
>
> Am 15.04.2019 01:33, schrieb Markus Vester:
>> Hi Stefan,
>>
>> DL0AO H-field (E-W): Eb/N0 = 2.5 dB(car), 0.7 dB(sym),
>> DL0AO E-Field: Eb/N0 = 12.0 dB(car), 10.9 dB (sym).
>>
>> Our file ended a couple of minutes early with the last 12 symbols
>> missing, causing a slightly high symbol error reading.
>>
>> 73 and good night,
>> Markus (DF6NM)
>>
>>
>> -----UrsprĂźngliche Mitteilung-----
>> Von: DK7FC <selberdenken@posteo.de> <mailto:selberdenken@posteo.de>
>> An: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
>> <mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>; Renato Romero <contact@vlf.it>
>> <mailto:contact@vlf.it>
>> Verschickt: So, 14. Apr. 2019 23:13
>> Betreff: Re: ULF: Ground loop night transmission 3.0
>>
>> Hello ULF friends,
>>
>> Now i'm sitting in the car again in the deep forest. It is silent
>> (outside!) and the sky is clear. The TX and EbNaut message is now
>> running:
>>
>> *f = 2470.1 Hz
>> Start time: 14.APR.2019 21:00:00.3 UTC
>> Symbol period: 9 s
>> Characters: 3
>> CRC bits: **16
>> Coding 16K21A
>> Antenna current: 2.5 A
>> Duration: 02:09:36 [hh:mm:ss]
>>
>> * TX power at the beginning of the transmission is 492 W this time.
>> *
>> * 73, Stefan
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 14.04.2019 14:41, schrieb DK7FC:
>> Hello Dreamers,
>>
>> Today it feels right again, i'd like to have another exciting
>> adventure...
>> After the recent successes at 2970 Hz, maybe it is possible to get
>> something through at 2470 Hz? That's the 121 km band. So far, thge
>> distance record at this frequency is over to DL4YHF, QRB ~ 313 km.
>>
>> I'd like to try the following:
>>
>> *f = 2470.1 Hz
>> Start time: 14.APR.2019 ab:cd:00.3 UTC
>> Symbol period: 9 s
>> Characters: 3
>> CRC bits: **16
>> Coding 16K21A
>> Antenna current: 2.e A
>> Duration: 02:09:36 [hh:mm:ss]*
>>
>> More details regarding start time and antenna current will follow
>> after the transmission has started.
>>
>> Reports requested / welcome :-)
>>
>> 73, Stefan
--------------080705030306020701000101
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
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RR Markus, thanks.<br>
Yes, 1.65 kHz is on the list.<br>
BTW the message has been decoded from the data of IK1QFK, with > 14
dB SNR. But more later.<br>
<br>
73, Stefan<br>
<br>
Am 15.04.2019 22:02, schrieb Markus Vester:
<blockquote cite="mid:2094456453.3003296.1555358572044@mail.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<div
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: black;">
<div id="yiv1764013660">
<div>
<div>
<div
style="color: black; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"
data-mce-style="color: black; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">Hi
Stefan,</div>
<div
style="color: black; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"
data-mce-style="color: black; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><br
clear="none">
</div>
<div
style="color: black; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"
data-mce-style="color: black; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><span
style="font-size: 13.3333px;" data-mce-style="font-size: 13.3333px;">>
Do you have an idea why the E-W cardioid result is worse than from the
E field alone?</span><br clear="none">
</div>
<div
style="color: black; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"
data-mce-style="color: black; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><br
clear="none">
</div>
<div
style="color: black; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"
data-mce-style="color: black; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">Looking
at <a moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank"
href="https://vlf.u01.de/VLFgrabber/vlf9.jpg">https://vlf.u01.de/VLFgrabber/vlf9.jpg</a>Â we
find that the noise grew much more on the earth loop (top) than on the
E-field (bottom). One reason may be that our earth antennas pick up
more 50 Hz harmonics - these won't interfere with your QRG directly but
may raise the noise blanker threshold and make spherics blanking less
effective. We could also speculate about spherics with steep incidence
angle, albeit you were more or less in the middle between 1st and 2nd
vertical tweek resonances (1.65 and 3.3 kHz). Anyway the SNR ratio
between H to E seems to be similar to your receivers.</div>
<div
style="color: black; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"
data-mce-style="color: black; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><br>
</div>
<div
style="color: black; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"
data-mce-style="color: black; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">Of
course skywave components may also have a direct effect on your signal
but I don't know whether that would have been positive or negative, or
in which way to extrapolate downwards. I'm very curious what would come
out of a 1.65 kHz transmission during a quiet night.</div>
<div
style="color: black; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"
data-mce-style="color: black; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><br
clear="none">
<span style="font-size: 13.3333px;"
data-mce-style="font-size: 13.3333px;">> Which carrier S/N do you
get from the E field?</span></div>
<div
style="color: black; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"
data-mce-style="color: black; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><span
style="font-size: 13.3333px;" data-mce-style="font-size: 13.3333px;"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span
style="color: black; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 13.3333px;"
data-mce-style="color: black; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13.3333px;">Decoder
output "</span><span style="font-size: 13.3333px;"
data-mce-style="font-size: 13.3333px;">carrier S/N 24.31 dB in 128.6
uHz" - should be related to carrier Eb/N0 by adding </span><span
style="color: black; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 13.3333px;"
data-mce-style="color: black; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13.3333px;">10
log (ncharacters * 5.7).</span></div>
<div><span
style="color: black; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 13.3333px;"
data-mce-style="color: black; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13.3333px;"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span
style="color: black; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 13.3333px;"
data-mce-style="color: black; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13.3333px;">Best
73,</span></div>
<div><span
style="color: black; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 13.3333px;"
data-mce-style="color: black; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13.3333px;">Markus</span></div>
<div><span
style="color: black; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 13.3333px;"
data-mce-style="color: black; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13.3333px;"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span
style="color: black; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 13.3333px;"
data-mce-style="color: black; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13.3333px;">Â Â </span></div>
<div
style="color: black; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"
data-mce-style="color: black; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><br
clear="none">
<span style="font-size: 10pt;" data-mce-style="font-size: 10pt;">-----UrsprĂźngliche
Mitteilung-----</span><br clear="none">
<span style="font-size: 10pt;" data-mce-style="font-size: 10pt;">Von:
DK7FC <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:selberdenken@posteo.de"><selberdenken@posteo.de></a></span><br clear="none">
<span style="font-size: 10pt;" data-mce-style="font-size: 10pt;">An:
rsgb_lf_group <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org"><rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org></a></span><br
clear="none">
<span style="font-size: 10pt;" data-mce-style="font-size: 10pt;">Verschickt:
Mo, 15. Apr. 2019 10:32</span><br clear="none">
<span style="font-size: 10pt;" data-mce-style="font-size: 10pt;">Betreff:
Re: ULF: Ground loop night transmission 3.0</span><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</div>
<div class="yiv1764013660yqt8440332276" id="yiv1764013660yqt33197"
style="color: black; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"
data-mce-style="color: black; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<div id="yiv1764013660">
<div>Hello Markus, ULF,<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Very well. Thanks for your decodes and for sharing the night :-)<br
clear="none">
Do you have an idea why the E-W cardioid result is worse than from the
E field alone?<br clear="none">
Which carrier S/N do you get from the E field? I'm getting carrier S/N:
40.62 dB in 128.6 uHz, 1.71 dB in 1Hz<br clear="none">
The difference of our carrier Eb/N0 is 16.3 dB. But as Paul mentioned,
camparing carrier S/N may be more accurate in that spectrum range.<br
clear="none">
It could be interesting to compare the SNR difference between our
locations over some frequencies. If that value is reasonable constant,
in the far field, then we could estimate what we can expect at 970 Hz...<br
clear="none">
My results from all 3 antennas are still looking good at that frequency:<br
clear="none">
E field: carrier S/N: 40.62 dB in 128.6 uHz<br clear="none">
N-S loop: carrier S/N: 28.38 dB in 128.6 uHz<br clear="none">
E-W loop: carrier S/N: 30.47 dB in 128.6 uHz<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
73, Stefan<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Am 15.04.2019 01:33, schrieb Markus Vester:
<div class="yiv1764013660yqt7307269803" id="yiv1764013660yqt31050">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: black;"
data-mce-style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; color: black;">
<div>
<div>Hi Stefan,</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>DL0AO H-field (E-W): Eb/N0 = 2.5 dB(car), 0.7 dB(sym),</div>
<div>DL0AO E-Field: Eb/N0 = 12.0 dB(car), 10.9 dB (sym). </div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>Our file ended a couple of minutes early with the last
12 symbols missing, causing a slightly high symbol error reading.</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>73 and good night,</div>
<div>Markus (DF6NM)</div>
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<span style="font-size: 10pt;" data-mce-style="font-size: 10pt;">-----UrsprĂźngliche
Mitteilung-----</span><br clear="none">
<span style="font-size: 10pt;" data-mce-style="font-size: 10pt;">Von:
DK7FC
<a moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
class="yiv1764013660moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
ymailto="mailto:selberdenken@posteo.de" target="_blank"
href="mailto:selberdenken@posteo.de"><selberdenken@posteo.de></a></span><br
clear="none">
<span style="font-size: 10pt;" data-mce-style="font-size: 10pt;">An:
rsgb_lf_group
<a moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
class="yiv1764013660moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
ymailto="mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" target="_blank"
href="mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org"><rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org></a>;
Renato Romero
<a moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
class="yiv1764013660moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
ymailto="mailto:contact@vlf.it" target="_blank"
href="mailto:contact@vlf.it"><contact@vlf.it></a></span><br
clear="none">
<span style="font-size: 10pt;" data-mce-style="font-size: 10pt;">Verschickt:
So, 14. Apr. 2019 23:13</span><br clear="none">
<span style="font-size: 10pt;" data-mce-style="font-size: 10pt;">Betreff:
Re: ULF: Ground loop night
transmission 3.0</span><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</div>
<div id="yiv1764013660">
<div>Hello ULF friends, <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Now i'm sitting in the car again in the deep forest. It is silent
(outside!) and the sky is clear. The TX and EbNaut message is now
running:<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<b>f = 2470.1 Hz<br clear="none">
Start time: 14.APR.2019Â 21:00:00.3 UTC<br clear="none">
Symbol period: 9 s<br clear="none">
Characters: 3<br clear="none">
CRC bits: </b><b>16<br clear="none">
Coding 16K21A<br clear="none">
Antenna current: 2.5 A<br clear="none">
Duration: 02:09:36 [hh:mm:ss]<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</b> TX power at the beginning of the transmission is 492 W this
time. <br clear="none">
<b><br clear="none">
</b> 73, Stefan<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Am 14.04.2019 14:41, schrieb DK7FC:
<blockquote type="cite"> </blockquote>
</div>
<div class="yiv1764013660yqt3117100455" id="yiv1764013660yqt12469">
<div>Hello Dreamers, <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Today it feels right again, i'd like to have another exciting
adventure...<br clear="none">
After the recent successes at 2970 Hz, maybe it is possible to get
something through at 2470 Hz? That's the 121 km band. So far, thge
distance record at this frequency is over to DL4YHF, QRB ~ 313 km.<br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
I'd like to try the following:<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<b>f = 2470.1 Hz<br clear="none">
Start time: 14.APR.2019Â ab:cd:00.3 UTC<br clear="none">
Symbol period: 9 s<br clear="none">
Characters: 3<br clear="none">
CRC bits: </b><b>16<br clear="none">
Coding 16K21A<br clear="none">
Antenna current: 2.e A<br clear="none">
Duration: 02:09:36 [hh:mm:ss]</b><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
More details regarding start time and antenna current will follow after
the transmission has started.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Reports requested / welcome :-)<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
73, Stefan<br clear="none">
</div>
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