Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by klubnl.pl (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id x2ABr12t002947 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2019 12:53:07 +0100 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1h2wwP-0002bL-3G for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 10 Mar 2019 11:48:29 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1h2wvn-0002bC-I3 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 10 Mar 2019 11:47:51 +0000 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1h2wvj-0005DR-PX for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 10 Mar 2019 11:47:49 +0000 Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CB72116005D for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2019 12:47:38 +0100 (CET) X-DKIM-Result: Domain=posteo.de Result=Signature OK DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.de; s=2017; t=1552218459; bh=63GS4+a75BeLo1tC3n/4Nb86rmrcbWVqJVsyCPGZxpE=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=fe/WO8qtKxcoub7E3BFkEMX6q3OUfbc2uMgBIvkuoRHId3Xc7MoHc7cMbQnWbXjvr 4Q199HAYhkseL8IN8ljbFKQs6muP+M2U5xVT64bexbViJpeBjiiHX3W6pOQFj6WLha qBB6ZAHFLpCB7RUzg5+Mob79nWZbPsQT3KXzyNbqijvmfNwZ+tLrGelH91SgXeCPd6 CeW2Y+QZcz2LZnLo0S/98M/DGQGB4T7N2WkMcR324eC9fB0Lj34FztAqfRpIM49DmO zsZZ/7OGLkr6M76sVYiLiFFSjZwSTw4xUqCBf2hAZj4oYIZMexfnrWY492bSRXxv8V lEB3RlrUzK9Gg== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 44HKGy0dcXz6tm8 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2019 12:47:37 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <5C84F958.5010502@posteo.de> Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2019 12:47:36 +0100 From: DK7FC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; de; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <435595266.2127766.1552155007472@mail.yahoo.com> <5C8430BD.9030002@posteo.de> <2743859.o4Vf0SrW0I@x220> In-Reply-To: <2743859.o4Vf0SrW0I@x220> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Hello Claudio, Well, somehow it is both. An amplitude modulated DC voltage (carrier frequency = 0) will radiate the same like an AC voltage of the same amplitude :-) And then you can modulate that amplitude modulati [...] Content analysis details: (-2.3 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -2.3 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, medium trust [185.67.36.65 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: 675237e668518adbdc288f8bd8f3d4ba Subject: Re: LF: Re: Re Loomis at LF? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------060508060606040703050106" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.0 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, HTML_TITLE_EMPTY autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060508060606040703050106 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Claudio, Well, somehow it is both. An amplitude modulated DC voltage (carrier frequency = 0) will radiate the same like an AC voltage of the same amplitude :-) And then you can modulate that amplitude modulation again, e.g. in BPSK or FM. Actually it is like done in any linear mode PA. It will be an electromagnetic transmission, but we would then like to see a detection in the far field or in 1 wavelength distance or above. Maybe it could work on LF? Maybe i will build up such an experiment tomorrow. The local LF grabber and of course the great SpectrumLab software will help to measure and display the signal level! This will give a first impression. Even charged raindrops will help to play the game! Something like a new mode? Like rain-scatter in the GHz range ;-) Thought a bit longer about the circuit configuration: The antenna could be discharged by an IRF710 which has a low output capacity and holds 400 V. At 137 kHz the on-time (T/2) is 3.65 us and if one wants to spend a discharge resistor (to lower the bandwidth of the radiated spectrum), 100 Ohm may be a good value for a 470 pF antenna. A plot showing the signal level over time will show which levels can be expected. Then we may try to pass an EbNaut message over to DF6NM and his EbNaut autodecoder? The message could be repeated again and again, for weeks! And then maybe suddenly will appear on the autodecoder website!????? 73, Stefan Am 10.03.2019 12:00, schrieb Claudio Pozzi: > > On Saturday, March 09, 2019 10:31:41 PM you wrote: > > HI Stephan, > > the proposed experiment with two 10 meters antennas is interesting but... > > ...is this an electromagnetic (Maxwell) transmission or an > electrostatic (Coulomb) transmission? > > 73 de Claudio IK2PII > > > Hi Jim, > > > > > > I hope you don't mind that i'd like to share the email with the > > > reflector, because i've a thought that might be interesting. > > > > > > In my view, the Loomis experiment it is rather the detection of a > > > changing current (charge per time) on the RX site. The changing current > > > is coming from a change in the static electric field, caused by the > > > shortcutted 'TX' antenna. Something like a current divider. > > > > > > In 2010/2011 i've done VLF transmissions on my own, using a 300m > > > vertical kite antenna (having a special licence for that altitude). The > > > antenna capacity was about 1.5 nF. During an experiment in the summer > > > time there was a short moment when the vertical wire was floating. It > > > quickly charged up to some kV, which was quite noticable when i catched > > > and touched the wire then!! Since that time i carefully kept the wire > > > grounded during such experiments. > > > So, it means that the wire charged up, so there must be some continuous > > > charge flowing onto the wire and, if the wire would be grounded > > > permanently, you could probably measure a more or less stable current, i > > > guess it would be some 100 uA. > > > Now imagine someone else would rise a grounded kite in a few meters > > > distance. This would certainly affect the current flowing in my kite > > > wire. The farer both 'antennas', the lower expressed the effect will be > > > and the higher the antennas, the stronger it will be expressed. > > > > > > I think the effect would be much better expressed by measuring the > > > voltage across a 1 MOhm resistor instead, which could be done by using a > > > scope and some overvoltage protection! > > > Actually an interesting question: In the summer time, which DC voltage > > > could be measured over a 1 MOhm resistor when connecting to a large E > > > field antenna and ground? > > > And, a next step: If i let my antenna charge up (floating) and then > > > discharge it in exact time intervals, say each second, then i should see > > > something at 1 Hz on a suitable receiver. This would already come close > > > to the experiment i'v done. I'm just replacing the 'natural charge > > > source' by a high voltage power supply and modulate that voltage (with a > > > sine wave, not rectangular). > > > > > > So, to answer your question, i think that Loomis experiment was not > > > dedicated ELF, it was rather a broad-band spectrum that was radiated, > > > since the charged antenna was discharged immediately. For a real ELF > > > transmission i would say that the carrier frequency has to be at ELF, > > > not the modulating frequency. OK here you might say the carrier > > > frequency is 0 and it is AM modulated... > > > > > > Try to repeat the experiment! Use smaller antennas and shorter > > > distances. Could be interesting :-) Rise two 10m high wires in 10m > > > distance in an open field. Connect one of them to a scope (1 MOhm input > > > resistance), protect the input with a glow lamp. Keep the other wire > > > floating. Select 1 second/div. If there is a thunderstorm coming and you > > > can see a rising DC level on the scope, then do a shortcircuit on the > > > other wire. I bet you will see the voltage dropping on the scope. > > > > > > 73, Stefan > > > > > > Am 09.03.2019 19:10, schrieb James Hollander: > > > > Hi Jacek and Stefan, I’d like to suggest that while I can’t say for > > > > sure there weren't ELF frequencies received in the Loomis experiment > > > > of 1866, I’m hesitant to reach the conclusion ELF was used by > > > > Loomis because of the following questions. > > > > 1) If the transient current that flowed when Loomis’ transmitter > > > > circuit was closed probably lasted only a few milliseconds, wouldn’t > > > > the modulation frequency content *exceed at least the upper ELF > > > > boundary 30Hz* as impressed on the “carrier”? > > > > 2) With a 600’ long TX antenna and only a galvanometer fed by similar > > > > height RX antenna, wouldn’t any radio waves that might have been > > > > received be shorter than 10x the wavelength for which a 600’ TX > > > > antenna is a quarter wavelength? 10x(600’x4)=24000’ or about 8km. If > > > > the wavelength is less than about 8km, wouldn’t the “carrier” > > > > frequency content exceed about *37 KHz*? > > > > 3) Nevertheless, one might say, if galvanometer deflected temporarily > > > > in Loomis’ system, it must have detected some near-DC content unless > > > > some nonlinear element were in the receiving circuit. If I Fourier > > > > Transform a damped DC transient, what is the frequency content? > > > > 4) If there were DC transfer, wouldn't we say it's in the nature of a > > > > current charging an atmosphere-ground capacitance through the ground > > > > resistance, not radio in near field ELF? Or should we say the meaning > > > > of “frequency” in this case becomes so fuzzy that Loomis both did and > > > > didn’t use ELF? > > > > 5) If indeed Loomis communicated any ELF, can’t one still radically > > > > distinguish the 12.67 Hz experiment at DK7FC as involving a very > > > > narrow band continuous wave with 227 hours integration of this > > > > continuous wave to detect it and make it separable from other waves > > > > that could be generated in the ELF band? > > > > I’m new to the subject of ELF, and would appreciate any words of > > > > wisdom you’d like to give. > > > > Vy 73, Jim Hollander W5EST > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Jacek Lipkowski > > > > To: rsgb_lf_group > > > > Sent: Sat, Mar 9, 2019 4:28 am > > > > Subject: Re: LF: RE: RE: Almost touching the ground... | 12.47 Hz > > > > > > > > Actually a similar experiment to Stefan's has been done already, > and at > > > > much lower frequencies (almost 0Hz :): > > > > > > > > http://aerohistory.org/Wireless/loomis.html > > > > > > > > In this case the power supply is from the cloud electric field and > > > > probably had quite a few more kV than Stefan's. > > > > > > > > Please note the DX distance. > > > > > > > > VY 73 > > > > > > > > Jacek / SQ5BPF > > > > > > > > > > > > *From: DK7FC To: rsgb_lf_group > > > > > > > > Sent: Tue, Mar 5, 2019 12:50 pm Subject: ELF: Almost touching the > > > > ground... | 12.47 Hz > > > > Hi ELF friends, During the last 2 weeks i've done another experiment > > > > on ELF, this time > > > > on 12.47 Hz, the 24 Mm band (wavelength 24057 km). Again i've crossed > > > > the local distance of 3.5 km. That's the lowest frequency i've ever > > > > been and it feels like i can see the ground already :-) The dimensions > > > > of everything down there are extreme. I've integrated 227 hours of a > > > > carrier transmission into one spectrum peak, it is shown in the > > > > attachment in 1.25 uHz. This carrier could have transferred an EbNaut > > > > message of nearly 100 characters. > > > > > > > > The ERP was 50 attowatt or -163 dBW and the antenna current was 170 uA > > > > only, despite about 5 kV antenna voltage. > > > > > > > > I'm now trying to put a step below 10 Hz but the RX antenna becomes > > > > less efficient with each Hz. 73, Stefan > > > > > ---- > > > ZE-Light e ZE-Pro: servizi zimbra per caselle con dominio email.it, > per tutti i dettagli clicca qui > > > > > > > Sponsor: > > > Idee regalo classiche o alternative? Trova l'offerta migliore in un click > > > Clicca qui > > > > > --------------060508060606040703050106 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Claudio,

Well, somehow it is both. An amplitude modulated DC voltage (carrier frequency = 0) will radiate the same like an AC voltage of the same amplitude :-) And then you can modulate that amplitude modulation again, e.g. in BPSK or FM. Actually it is like done in any linear mode PA.
It will be an electromagnetic transmission, but we would then like to see a detection in the far field or in 1 wavelength distance or above.

Maybe it could work on LF?
Maybe i will build up such an experiment tomorrow.
The local LF grabber and of course the great SpectrumLab software will help to measure and display the signal level! This will give a first impression. Even charged raindrops will help to play the game! Something like a new mode? Like rain-scatter in the GHz range ;-)
Thought a bit longer about the circuit configuration: The antenna could be discharged by an IRF710 which has a low output capacity and holds 400 V. At 137 kHz the on-time (T/2) is 3.65 us and if one wants to spend a discharge resistor (to lower the bandwidth of the radiated spectrum), 100 Ohm may be a good value for a 470 pF antenna.
A plot showing the signal level over time will show which levels can be expected. Then we may try to pass an EbNaut message over to DF6NM and his EbNaut autodecoder? The message could be repeated again and again, for weeks! And then maybe suddenly will appear on the autodecoder website!?????

73, Stefan


Am 10.03.2019 12:00, schrieb Claudio Pozzi:

On Saturday, March 09, 2019 10:31:41 PM you wrote:

 

HI Stephan,

the proposed experiment with two 10 meters antennas is interesting but...

 

...is this an electromagnetic (Maxwell) transmission or an electrostatic (Coulomb) transmission?

 

73 de Claudio IK2PII

 

 

 

> Hi Jim,

>

> I hope you don't mind that i'd like to share the email with the

> reflector, because i've a thought that might be interesting.

>

> In my view, the Loomis experiment it is rather the detection of a

> changing current (charge per time) on the RX site. The changing current

> is coming from a change in the static electric field, caused by the

> shortcutted 'TX' antenna. Something like a current divider.

>

> In 2010/2011 i've done VLF transmissions on my own, using a 300m

> vertical kite antenna (having a special licence for that altitude). The

> antenna capacity was about 1.5 nF. During an experiment in the summer

> time there was a short moment when the vertical wire was floating. It

> quickly charged up to some kV, which was quite noticable when i catched

> and touched the wire then!! Since that time i carefully kept the wire

> grounded during such experiments.

> So, it means that the wire charged up, so there must be some continuous

> charge flowing onto the wire and, if the wire would be grounded

> permanently, you could probably measure a more or less stable current, i

> guess it would be some 100 uA.

> Now imagine someone else would rise a grounded kite in a few meters

> distance. This would certainly affect the current flowing in my kite

> wire. The farer both 'antennas', the lower expressed the effect will be

> and the higher the antennas, the stronger it will be expressed.

>

> I think the effect would be much better expressed by measuring the

> voltage across a 1 MOhm resistor instead, which could be done by using a

> scope and some overvoltage protection!

> Actually an interesting question: In the summer time, which DC voltage

> could be measured over a 1 MOhm resistor when connecting to a large E

> field antenna and ground?

> And, a next step: If i let my antenna charge up (floating) and then

> discharge it in exact time intervals, say each second, then i should see

> something at 1 Hz on a suitable receiver. This would already come close

> to the experiment i'v done. I'm just replacing the 'natural charge

> source' by a high voltage power supply and modulate that voltage (with a

> sine wave, not rectangular).

>

> So, to answer your question, i think that Loomis experiment was not

> dedicated ELF, it was rather a broad-band spectrum that was radiated,

> since the charged antenna was discharged immediately. For a real ELF

> transmission i would say that the carrier frequency has to be at ELF,

> not the modulating frequency. OK here you might say the carrier

> frequency is 0 and it is AM modulated...

>

> Try to repeat the experiment! Use smaller antennas and shorter

> distances. Could be interesting :-) Rise two 10m high wires in 10m

> distance in an open field. Connect one of them to a scope (1 MOhm input

> resistance), protect the input with a glow lamp. Keep the other wire

> floating. Select 1 second/div. If there is a thunderstorm coming and you

> can see a rising DC level on the scope, then do a shortcircuit on the

> other wire. I bet you will see the voltage dropping on the scope.

>

> 73, Stefan

>

> Am 09.03.2019 19:10, schrieb James Hollander:

> > Hi Jacek and Stefan, I’d like to suggest that while I can’t say for

> > sure there weren't ELF frequencies received in the Loomis experiment

> > of 1866, I’m hesitant to reach the conclusion ELF was used by

> > Loomis because of the following questions.

> > 1) If the transient current that flowed when Loomis’ transmitter

> > circuit was closed probably lasted only a few milliseconds, wouldn’t

> > the modulation frequency content *exceed at least the upper ELF

> > boundary 30Hz* as impressed on the “carrier”?

> > 2) With a 600’ long TX antenna and only a galvanometer fed by similar

> > height RX antenna, wouldn’t any radio waves that might have been

> > received be shorter than 10x the wavelength for which a 600’ TX

> > antenna is a quarter wavelength? 10x(600’x4)=24000’ or about 8km. If

> > the wavelength is less than about 8km, wouldn’t the “carrier”

> > frequency content exceed about *37 KHz*?

> > 3) Nevertheless, one might say, if galvanometer deflected temporarily

> > in Loomis’ system, it must have detected some near-DC content unless

> > some nonlinear element were in the receiving circuit. If I Fourier

> > Transform a damped DC transient, what is the frequency content?

> > 4) If there were DC transfer, wouldn't we say it's in the nature of a

> > current charging an atmosphere-ground capacitance through the ground

> > resistance, not radio in near field ELF? Or should we say the meaning

> > of “frequency” in this case becomes so fuzzy that Loomis both did and

> > didn’t use ELF?

> > 5) If indeed Loomis communicated any ELF, can’t one still radically

> > distinguish the 12.67 Hz experiment at DK7FC as involving a very

> > narrow band continuous wave with 227 hours integration of this

> > continuous wave to detect it and make it separable from other waves

> > that could be generated in the ELF band?

> > I’m new to the subject of ELF, and would appreciate any words of

> > wisdom you’d like to give.

> > Vy 73, Jim Hollander W5EST

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: Jacek Lipkowski <sq5bpf@lipkowski.org>

> > To: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>

> > Sent: Sat, Mar 9, 2019 4:28 am

> > Subject: Re: LF: RE: RE: Almost touching the ground... | 12.47 Hz

> >

> > Actually a similar experiment to Stefan's has been done already, and at

> > much lower frequencies (almost 0Hz :):

> >

> > http://aerohistory.org/Wireless/loomis.html

> >

> > In this case the power supply is from the cloud electric field and

> > probably had quite a few more kV than Stefan's.

> >

> > Please note the DX distance.

> >

> > VY 73

> >

> > Jacek / SQ5BPF

> >

> >

> > *From: DK7FC <selberdenken@posteo.de*> To: rsgb_lf_group

> > <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>

> > Sent: Tue, Mar 5, 2019 12:50 pm Subject: ELF: Almost touching the

> > ground... | 12.47 Hz

> > Hi ELF friends, During the last 2 weeks i've done another experiment

> > on ELF, this time

> > on 12.47 Hz, the 24 Mm band (wavelength 24057 km). Again i've crossed

> > the local distance of 3.5 km. That's the lowest frequency i've ever

> > been and it feels like i can see the ground already :-) The dimensions

> > of everything down there are extreme. I've integrated 227 hours of a

> > carrier transmission into one spectrum peak, it is shown in the

> > attachment in 1.25 uHz. This carrier could have transferred an EbNaut

> > message of nearly 100 characters.

> >

> > The ERP was 50 attowatt or -163 dBW and the antenna current was 170 uA

> > only, despite about 5 kV antenna voltage.

> >

> > I'm now trying to put a step below 10 Hz but the RX antenna becomes

> > less efficient with each Hz. 73, Stefan

 




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