Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by klubnl.pl (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id x0QBYU6h003482 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 12:34:37 +0100 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1gnM8m-0000Jg-Ug for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 11:28:48 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1gnM8k-0000JX-Kf for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 11:28:46 +0000 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gnM8h-0003a7-TB for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 11:28:45 +0000 Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF8742400E5 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 12:28:42 +0100 (CET) X-DKIM-Result: Domain=posteo.de Result=Signature OK DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.de; s=2017; t=1548502122; bh=6mwCspgm2HHz8B+ZHG29BQv4gcL74jOXYyI/rRqqpx0=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=GHIUJKYe/k6M0gQag0Byl3YV8O+zqfhPWsWGyPWN/SBVzoM9RhF6GHxy+IL5HqUwU +5D9wuNHF4k0+SuKypUM0r6T/3RpB4oI6z7tfY8civffS5BGKpjSi5jR5eraKM4av0 ITKgk9wFzDUkD2D8goO71896P81Y3BoVbNxq7L7DEqp3B8zORjPkp1bY16adETZ8ka ee5gOHWsauy1meTs9bXxbCYeLnuPuxjHlOE3UFVWnB4edqCv9IJMCvrDOnTUjiTcF/ pyxCdUJoiFPv0Mjglwsu/pd+N4PNEelhJlCBl+DOWs8+DKoNNdf6pKKq9wz15CQ8pi XuSk7ll3RDNzw== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 43mttx6hzQz9rxN for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 12:28:41 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <5C4C4469.1050006@posteo.de> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 12:28:41 +0100 From: DK7FC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; de; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <168892287d0.marcocadeddu@tin.it> In-Reply-To: <168892287d0.marcocadeddu@tin.it> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Hi MF, Thanks to the many spotters and the discussion. Indeed, there were 53 stations detecting the signal. Those are the ones above 1000 km distance Timestamp Call MHz SNR Drift Grid Pwr Reporter RGrid km a [...] Content analysis details: (-2.3 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -2.3 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, medium trust [185.67.36.66 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: c61917eaf8bc8733d7e85540486fff22 Subject: Re: R: LF: TXing WSPR/MF on an indoor loop Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------060902080602010309070602" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, HTML_TAG_EXISTS_TBODY autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060902080602010309070602 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi MF, Thanks to the many spotters and the discussion. Indeed, there were 53 stations detecting the signal. Those are the ones above 1000 km distance Timestamp Call MHz SNR Drift Grid Pwr Reporter RGrid km az # Spots 2019-01-25 18:46 DK7FC 0.475684 -26 0 JN49ik 0.01 LA9IY JP53 1567 4 1 2019-01-25 19:16 DK7FC 0.475683 -25 0 JN49ik 0.01 LA2XPA JP33 1565 357 4 2019-01-25 21:22 DK7FC 0.475683 -28 0 JN49ik 0.01 GM4OAS IO76cx 1274 317 8 2019-01-25 22:40 DK7FC 0.475683 -30 0 JN49ik 0.01 EI0CF IO65ih 1263 307 18 2019-01-26 00:52 DK7FC 0.475660 -23 0 JN49ik 0.01 LA8AV JO59cs 1153 4 1 2019-01-25 20:34 DK7FC 0.475683 -28 0 JN49ik 0.01 GM3YXM IO75xc 1070 311 9 2019-01-25 18:10 DK7FC 0.475683 -24 0 JN49ik 0.01 LA3EQ JO28xj 1012 351 22 So far the transmissions are still decoded, so the time offset seems to be small enough. I had to hurry building up the system last afternoon because i left the QTH a few minutes later. So i just wanted to get some antenna current and moderate TX power but i didn't match it accurately to 50 Ohm. The PA losses are very small, maybe we can assume 40 W RF power. With the measured 1.6 A we seem to have 15.6 Ohm on the primary side and then 0.2 Ohm on the secondary side, just as Rik estimated. The antenna is in the 4th floor and it is an old house, with wooden stairs and not to massive walls. I am quite sure that the wall which carries the loop does not have internal steel grids. The loop is quite close to the outside wall in north-west direction. So there is more stuff causing some attenuation into the south-east direction. But i would expect an overall attenuation by all the lossy stuff arround the loop rather than a directivity given by the lossy stuff. Anyway, it seems the loop performs is better into the north-west direction. Or is it just because the QRN levels are likely to be higher in Italy than in Scotland? And the Alps making an effect? All in all we see that anyone can be QRV on MF, even with very poor antenna possibilities. That is the good message :-) Oh and that system is totally immune against rain, storm, and even thunderstorms! You can even use the losses to heat the home, so is it a loss at all? ;-) The limiting factor in that system is the capacitor! I use 2.2 nF +6.8 nF + 1090 pF variable C. Maybe it can be optimised by using 10 x 1 nF WIMA-FKP-1-2000. The voltage is about 450 V, which is well below the 700 V limit. Maybe two turns of litz (keeping the loop size) would make a better antenna, with lower currents and lower losses in the capacitors. The thermal capacity and surface of the loop is high so that will not limit the system.... 73, Stefan Am 26.01.2019 08:49, schrieb marcocadeddu@tin.it: > Hi Stefan, > > I just checked on WSPRnet and red you got plenty of reports from your > QRP activity so my 3 spots are a drop in the sea.. but > > 3 spots: > > Timestamp Call MHz SNR Drift Grid Pwr Reporter RGrid km az > 2019-01-26 03:34 DK7FC 0.475683 -27 0 JN49ik 0.01 > IK1HSS JN35tb 493 190 > 2019-01-26 03:28 DK7FC 0.475683 -25 0 JN49ik 0.01 > IK1HSS JN35tb 493 190 > 2019-01-25 16:10 DK7FC 0.475683 -27 0 JN49ik 0.01 > IK1HSS JN35tb 493 190 > > the rx is a direct conversion rx with a simple bandpass input filter.. > it is sensitive but lacks of course of image rejection and other > features that make a real receiver another thing :-) > The strange point is how the 3 spots are spreaded in the period: 16:10 > 03:28 03:34.. > > Some years ago I made some trials on 137 kHz using an (outside) 2 > turns loop (5x5m) and it was funny > > 73, Marco IK1HSS > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: selberdenken@posteo.de > Data: 25-gen-2019 15.23 > A: > Ogg: LF: TXing WSPR/MF on an indoor loop > > Hi MF, > > A few days ago i took some RF litz wire and built a loop that is now > hanging on the wall inside my home, just 1m besides the bed :-) (no XYL > here spoiling the fun). The loop is beaming to about 150/330 deg. > > After playing some days on 160m (an unusual high frequency, witch feels > very strange. And the band is full of unknown callsigns!!) i did now > move down to more or less low frequencies, the 630m band! > > About 10 nF is needed to series resonate the loop. It has about 2m x 2m > of size. The antenna current is not stable because the WIMA FKP-1 > capacitor becomes warm during the 2 minute WSPR sequence. But the > maximum current in the loop is 14 A. That explains why the cap becomes > warm. A small parallel variable capacitor tunes to resonance. It is > tuned so that the upheating capacitor runs into the resonance point in > the middle of the WSPR sequence, then it runs out of the resonance by > upheating further. It can cool down during the following quiet periods.. > > 14A into a 4 square meter loop at 475.7 kHz, how much ERP is that? The > PA consumes about 3.5 A at 13.8V, i.e. about 50 W. > > The system will run over the weekend, even during daylight. The signal > generator is a Raspi which will have no internet connectivity from now > on, so let's hope the time offset stays inside the accepted range for > this experiment. > > What will the best distance be? So far the band is closed but i'm > optimistic to crack the 1000 km distance with this QRP setup. > > 73, Stefan > > > --------------060902080602010309070602 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi MF,

Thanks to the many spotters and the discussion. Indeed, there were 53 stations detecting the signal. Those are the ones above 1000 km distance
Timestamp Call MHz SNR Drift Grid Pwr Reporter RGrid km az # Spots
 2019-01-25 18:46   DK7FC   0.475684   -26   0   JN49ik   0.01   LA9IY   JP53   1567   4   1 
 2019-01-25 19:16   DK7FC   0.475683   -25   0   JN49ik   0.01   LA2XPA   JP33   1565   357   4 
 2019-01-25 21:22   DK7FC   0.475683   -28   0   JN49ik   0.01   GM4OAS   IO76cx   1274   317   8 
 2019-01-25 22:40   DK7FC   0.475683   -30   0   JN49ik   0.01   EI0CF   IO65ih   1263   307   18 
 2019-01-26 00:52   DK7FC   0.475660   -23   0   JN49ik   0.01   LA8AV   JO59cs   1153   4   1 
 2019-01-25 20:34   DK7FC   0.475683   -28   0   JN49ik   0.01   GM3YXM   IO75xc   1070   311   9 
 2019-01-25 18:10   DK7FC   0.475683   -24   0   JN49ik   0.01   LA3EQ   JO28xj   1012   351   22 

So far the transmissions are still decoded, so the time offset seems to be small enough.

I had to hurry building up the system last afternoon because i left the QTH a few minutes later. So i just wanted to get some antenna current and moderate TX power but i didn't match it accurately to 50 Ohm. The PA losses are very small, maybe we can assume 40 W RF power. With the measured 1.6 A we seem to have 15.6 Ohm on the primary side and then 0.2 Ohm on the secondary side, just as Rik estimated.
The antenna is in the 4th floor and it is an old house, with wooden stairs and not to massive walls. I am quite sure that the wall which carries the loop does not have internal steel grids. The loop is quite close to the outside wall in north-west direction. So there is more stuff causing some attenuation into the south-east direction. But i would expect an overall attenuation by all the lossy stuff arround the loop rather than a directivity given by the lossy stuff. Anyway, it seems the loop performs is better into the north-west direction. Or is it just because the QRN levels are likely to be higher in Italy than in Scotland? And the Alps making an effect?

All in all we see that anyone can be QRV on MF, even with very poor antenna possibilities. That is the good message :-) Oh and that system is totally immune against rain, storm, and even thunderstorms! You can even use the losses to heat the home, so is it a loss at all? ;-)

The limiting factor in that system is the capacitor! I use 2.2 nF +6.8 nF + 1090 pF variable C. Maybe it can be optimised by using 10 x 1 nF WIMA-FKP-1-2000. The voltage is about 450 V, which is well below the 700 V limit.
Maybe two turns of litz (keeping the loop size) would make a better antenna, with lower currents and lower losses in the capacitors. The thermal capacity and surface of the loop is high so that will not limit the system....

73, Stefan


Am 26.01.2019 08:49, schrieb marcocadeddu@tin.it:
Hi Stefan,

I just checked on WSPRnet and red you got plenty of reports from your QRP activity so my 3 spots are a drop in the sea.. but

3 spots:

Timestamp Call MHz SNR Drift Grid Pwr Reporter RGrid km az
 2019-01-26 03:34   DK7FC   0.475683   -27   0   JN49ik   0.01   IK1HSS   JN35tb   493   190 
 2019-01-26 03:28   DK7FC   0.475683   -25   0   JN49ik   0.01   IK1HSS   JN35tb   493   190 
 2019-01-25 16:10   DK7FC   0.475683   -27   0   JN49ik   0.01   IK1HSS   JN35tb   493   190 
the rx is a direct conversion rx with a simple bandpass input filter.. it is sensitive but lacks of course of image rejection and other features that make a real receiver another thing :-)
The strange point is how the 3 spots are spreaded in the period: 16:10 03:28 03:34..

Some years ago I made some trials on 137 kHz using an (outside) 2 turns loop (5x5m) and it was funny

73, Marco IK1HSS


----Messaggio originale----
Da: selberdenken@posteo.de
Data: 25-gen-2019 15.23
A: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Ogg: LF: TXing WSPR/MF on an indoor loop

Hi MF,

A few days ago i took some RF litz wire and built a loop that is now
hanging on the wall inside my home, just 1m besides the bed :-) (no XYL
here spoiling the fun). The loop is beaming to about 150/330 deg.

After playing some days on 160m (an unusual high frequency, witch feels
very strange. And the band is full of unknown callsigns!!) i did now
move down to more or less low frequencies, the 630m band!

About 10 nF is needed to series resonate the loop. It has about 2m x 2m
of size. The antenna current is not stable because the WIMA FKP-1
capacitor becomes warm during the 2 minute WSPR sequence. But the
maximum current in the loop is 14 A. That explains why the cap becomes
warm. A small parallel variable capacitor tunes to resonance. It is
tuned so that the upheating capacitor runs into the resonance point in
the middle of the WSPR sequence, then it runs out of the resonance by
upheating further. It can cool down during the following quiet periods..

14A into a 4 square meter loop at 475.7 kHz, how much ERP is that? The
PA consumes about 3.5 A at 13.8V, i.e. about 50 W.

The system will run over the weekend, even during daylight. The signal
generator is a Raspi which will have no internet connectivity from now
on, so let's hope the time offset stays inside the accepted range for
this experiment.

What will the best distance be? So far the band is closed but i'm
optimistic to crack the 1000 km distance with this QRP setup.

73, Stefan



--------------060902080602010309070602--