Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by klubnl.pl (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id x0PI8LZs031122 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:08:23 +0100 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1gn5od-0007Dk-Pn for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 18:02:55 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1gn5o8-0007Db-NW for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 18:02:24 +0000 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gn5o5-0001hN-Tn for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 18:02:23 +0000 Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E72871600A9 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:02:19 +0100 (CET) X-DKIM-Result: Domain=posteo.de Result=Signature OK DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.de; s=2017; t=1548439340; bh=f+lFvu6Mdu7RC4V20AczMeFAQ1zmcV2ZI3fSbls/tzg=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=SrdoHH08a4/Ui1SLewK/5Nw3ZUhAEOx0kGB4+Wy5n0dSL+F3YuGpTqMJEQdTgHnSj B60HTNnDd83QFTK6n8jzt0ISpuXgFKPqsBJ4Z3X2RnPR2yPOASozpM3qHogA16uZi1 2ffwM+latxr0SXdt/8yxPApCEdD5gb9XeVjFd3oOTyk85c5GLaIUXBnBun4KnRbWXZ jgYRugEdItJFMBIuVKA7j0cdVKTgLsfrcWSH5rqSUfJag0gO60cbWJBN8d8/bJB3TP xaqxj6vZ2mUO18mH6tSL8Ud6NbrGqAD89UY9Sv1YozZn4IsKT5Ry15ZSOr5++t/VNA 2qbKR+EZRyY4A== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 43mRgZ4SQLz6tm6 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:02:18 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <5C4B4F2A.6000201@posteo.de> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:02:18 +0100 From: DK7FC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; de; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <1UTCTNxG9H.5T3bfQF3xD0@optiplex980-pc> <9C9C8088-AD45-4DDF-BD7E-66D13F0D835C@md.metrocast.net> ,<5C4B1BD5.6010404@posteo.de> <1548429783635.69862@kuleuven.be> In-Reply-To: <1548429783635.69862@kuleuven.be> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Hello Rik, Thanks for your calculations. Looks like the 1000 km distance is already done. Of course i also matched the loop. It uses a small blue ferrite core with just 20mm diameter. The big RF litz (DECCA litz [...] Content analysis details: (-2.3 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -2.3 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, medium trust [185.67.36.65 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: c6a8ca7629fac3d35507e5a7fd3cbf17 Subject: Re: LF: Re: TXing WSPR/MF on an indoor loop Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Hello Rik, Thanks for your calculations. Looks like the 1000 km distance is already done. Of course i also matched the loop. It uses a small blue ferrite core with just 20mm diameter. The big RF litz (DECCA litz with 729 strands (3*3*3*3*3*3) passes just one time through the core, and then 9 turns on the primary side, so this is much closer to 50 Ohm ;-) I can measure the antenna current on the primary side, 1.6 A. So it must be 9 times higher in the loop... 73, Stefan Am 25.01.2019 16:23, schrieb Rik Strobbe: > Hi Stefan, > > the radiation resistance of a small loop: Ra = (320*Pi^4*A^2)/lambda^4 where A is the loop area in m^2 > So for lambda = 630 m and A = 4 m^2 the radiation restistance Ra = 3.17 ľOhm (micro Ohm). > At least in theory, an indoor antenna will probably have some extra losses. > The gain of a small loop is -0.39dBd = 0.9 > > So the theoretical ERP = 0.9*14^2*3.17e-6 = 0.56 mW = -32.5dBW > > Will I be able to copy you? > Your regular 1W ERP signal is often up to +15dB here in WSPR, so the 0.56 mW should peak 15-32= -17dB. That's a solid copy in WSPR! > Even with 10dB additional loss I should be able to copy you. > > Did you just resonate the loop or also matched it? > Based on 40W RF power (50W DC at 80% efficiency) and 14A antenna current the antenna impedance is only 0.2 Ohm. That would result in a VSWR of 250 (!) for 50 Ohm TX output impedance. > > 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T > > PS= I hope you have a wooden bed (and bedsprings) > > ________________________________________ > Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org namens DK7FC > Verzonden: vrijdag 25 januari 2019 15:23 > Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Onderwerp: LF: TXing WSPR/MF on an indoor loop > > Hi MF, > > A few days ago i took some RF litz wire and built a loop that is now > hanging on the wall inside my home, just 1m besides the bed :-) (no XYL > here spoiling the fun). The loop is beaming to about 150/330 deg. > > After playing some days on 160m (an unusual high frequency, witch feels > very strange. And the band is full of unknown callsigns!!) i did now > move down to more or less low frequencies, the 630m band! > > About 10 nF is needed to series resonate the loop. It has about 2m x 2m > of size. The antenna current is not stable because the WIMA FKP-1 > capacitor becomes warm during the 2 minute WSPR sequence. But the > maximum current in the loop is 14 A. That explains why the cap becomes > warm. A small parallel variable capacitor tunes to resonance. It is > tuned so that the upheating capacitor runs into the resonance point in > the middle of the WSPR sequence, then it runs out of the resonance by > upheating further. It can cool down during the following quiet periods.. > > 14A into a 4 square meter loop at 475.7 kHz, how much ERP is that? The > PA consumes about 3.5 A at 13.8V, i.e. about 50 W. > > The system will run over the weekend, even during daylight. The signal > generator is a Raspi which will have no internet connectivity from now > on, so let's hope the time offset stays inside the accepted range for > this experiment. > > What will the best distance be? So far the band is closed but i'm > optimistic to crack the 1000 km distance with this QRP setup. > > 73, Stefan > > >