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Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 15:34:55 +0100
From: DK7FC <selberdenken@posteo.de>
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Content preview: Hi Jim, Yes but the messages from VO1NA took much longer to
decode at limilar distances. I don't know exactly, i think it was something
between 4...6 days to produce a decode at DL0AO ? But that was with a longer
TX period and in the deep winter. Not to think about the local noise differences
and antenna directivity... Jay uses a pure omni-directional E field probe
whereas DL0AO used a software combined cardioid antenna pointing to EW exactly.
In the end there are some uncertainties which makes it hard to determine
the actual E-W/W-E attenuation. But it looks like something between 10...20
dB is a good estimate. [...]
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Subject: Re: LF: VLF DK7FC > W1VD 8.27 kHz EbNaut more success!
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Hi Jim,
Yes but the messages from VO1NA took much longer to decode at limilar
distances. I don't know exactly, i think it was something between 4...6
days to produce a decode at DL0AO ?
But that was with a longer TX period and in the deep winter. Not to
think about the local noise differences and antenna directivity... Jay
uses a pure omni-directional E field probe whereas DL0AO used a software
combined cardioid antenna pointing to EW exactly.
In the end there are some uncertainties which makes it hard to determine
the actual E-W/W-E attenuation. But it looks like something between
10...20 dB is a good estimate.
Depending on the time it needs to produce a lucky 5 character decode at
W1VD, i will soon move to 17.47 kHz again to start experimenting with
Edgar in VK7, just a path of 16805 km
(http://k7fry.com/grid/?qth=QE37PD35&from=jn49ik00wd).
Then at night we can try to transfer a message to W1VD at 17.47 kHz to
see the difference of the attenuation. The old graphs suggest a big
difference but i bet it is not much, maybe 6 dB.
73, Stefan
Am 26.02.2018 15:15, schrieb hvanesce@comcast.net:
>
> Stefan,
>
> Thank you for the reminder. All of the permeable-core
> selection/placement and winding improvements come to mind when you
> mention that number.
>
> Correcting the sentence below: â(ERP ratio 16dB)âŚoffset a nominal
> E-W/W-E attenuation ratio (9 dB EW/WE ratio for 6Mm path) by 7dB.
>
> Excellent ERP, and glad that Markus pointed out the quantitative
> consistency of same-month E-W and W-E link results with
> non-reciprocity at 8270 Hz.
>
> 73,
>
> Jim AA5BW
>
> *From:* owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
> [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] *On Behalf Of *DK7FC
> *Sent:* Monday, February 26, 2018 6:34 AM
> *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
> *Subject:* Re: LF: VLF DK7FC > W1VD 8.27 kHz EbNaut more success!
>
> Thanks Jim,
>
> ERP is 400 uW. Often discussed but my statement here :-)
>
> 73, Stefan
>
> Am 26.02.2018 04:31, schrieb hvanesce@comcast.net:
> <mailto:hvanesce@comcast.net:>
>
> Congratulations Jay and Stefan, and thanks Markus for the perspectives
> and reference points. I have a rough recollection of Stefanâs
> estimated ERP, which would seem to slightly more than offset a nominal
> E-W/W-E attenuation ratio, making Markusâ two propagation observations
> particularly interesting, as is the Forest question.
>
> Fine work Stefan and Jay.
>
> 73,
>
> Jim AA5BW
>
> *From:* owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
> <mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
> [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] *On Behalf Of *Markus Vester
> *Sent:* Sunday, February 25, 2018 2:25 PM
> *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org <mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
> *Subject:* Re: LF: VLF DK7FC > W1VD 8.27 kHz EbNaut more success!
>
> Hi Jay, Stefan,
>
> really good work, truly amazing!
>
> Noticing that Stefan hadn't sent another repeat last
> night 24/25th, I wondered whether the experiment might have already
> been concluded successfully - yes it had ;-)
>
> Considering that Joe has been making the TA W-E path with only 10 uW,
> in retrospective it seems not so surprising that Stefan's much
> stronger signal managed to overcome the E-W nonreciprocity. On the
> other hand, when Uwe had sent a very long carrier in March 2014,
> no conclusive trace was ever detected in Virginia. Now I wonder
> whether Stefan's recent transmission has also been picked up in Forest?
>
> All the best,
> Markus (DF6NM)
>
>
> -----UrsprĂźngliche Mitteilung-----
> Von: jrusgrove <jrusgrove@comcast.net <mailto:jrusgrove@comcast.net>>
> An: (rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
> <mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>) <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
> <mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>>
> Verschickt: So, 25. Feb 2018 19:26
> Betreff: LF: VLF DK7FC > W1VD 8.27 kHz EbNaut more success!
>
>
> Stefans transmission:
>
> *f = 8270.1000 Hz**
> *Start time: 19.FEB.2018 22:30:00 UTC (daily)*
> *Symbol period: 30 s*
> *Characters: 2*
> *CRC bits: 22*
> *Coding 16K21A*
> *Duration: 07:12 [hh:mm]*
> *Antenna current: 700 mA**
>
> After a successful one character reception earlier in the week, we can
> now report the successful reception of a 2 character message. Stacking
> of 3 transmissions was required (0221, 0222 and 0223). There is also
> a 0224 file but it has timing issues and may or may not be usable.
>
> ebnaut-rx V0.8
> input file C:\EbNaut\DK7FC\sum212223.wav
> sample rate 0.457240 per second
> rx frequency 8270
> file start time 2018-02-22 22:21:17.790
> polynomial 16K21A
> crc size 22
> number of chars 2
> block size 34
> symbol period 30.000
> number of symbols 864
> start offset 537.000
> freq offset 0.100000
> cores 2
> list length 500000
> skipped 538.011261 seconds to start
> initial reference phase 30.6
> ---------------------------------------------
> found DX
> list rank 48426
> reference phase 150,150,150,150
> carrier S/N 11.04 dB in 38.6 uHz, -33.10 dB in 1Hz, -67.08 dB in 2.5kHz
> carrier Es/N0 -18.33 dB
> carrier Eb/N0 0.47 dB
> info bit period 2273.68 seconds
> symbol error rate 373/864 = 43.171 %
> Es/N0 from symbol errors -18.2 dB
> Eb/N0 from symbol errors 0.6 dB
> Shannon capacity 2.5 bits/hour
> Shannon efficiency 62.7 %
> symbols file C:\EbNaut\DK7FC\sum212223-symbols.csv
> elapsed 52 seconds
> ---------------------------------------------
> found DX
> list rank 17074
> reference phase 120,150,120,150
> carrier S/N 11.19 dB in 38.6 uHz, -32.94 dB in 1Hz, -66.92 dB in 2.5kHz
> carrier Es/N0 -18.17 dB
> carrier Eb/N0 0.62 dB
> info bit period 2273.68 seconds
> symbol error rate 374/864 = 43.287 %
> Es/N0 from symbol errors -18.4 dB
> Eb/N0 from symbol errors 0.4 dB
> Shannon capacity 2.6 bits/hour
> Shannon efficiency 60.5 %
> symbols file C:\EbNaut\DK7FC\sum212223-symbols.csv
> elapsed 383 seconds
>
> Jay W1VD WD2XNS WE2XGR/2
>
--------------030004040203030609080108
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Hi Jim, <br>
<br>
Yes but the messages from VO1NA took much longer to decode at limilar
distances. I don't know exactly, i think it was something between 4...6
days to produce a decode at DL0AO ? <br>
But that was with a longer TX period and in the deep winter. Not to
think about the local noise differences and antenna directivity... Jay
uses a pure omni-directional E field probe whereas DL0AO used a
software combined cardioid antenna pointing to EW exactly.<br>
In the end there are some uncertainties which makes it hard to
determine the actual E-W/W-E attenuation. But it looks like something
between 10...20 dB is a good estimate.<br>
<br>
Depending on the time it needs to produce a lucky 5 character decode at
W1VD, i will soon move to 17.47 kHz again to start experimenting with
Edgar in VK7, just a path of 16805 km
(<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://k7fry.com/grid/?qth=QE37PD35&from=jn49ik00wd">http://k7fry.com/grid/?qth=QE37PD35&from=jn49ik00wd</a>).<br>
Then at night we can try to transfer a message to W1VD at 17.47 kHz to
see the difference of the attenuation. The old graphs suggest a big
difference but i bet it is not much, maybe 6 dB.<br>
<br>
73, Stefan<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Am 26.02.2018 15:15, schrieb <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:hvanesce@comcast.net:">hvanesce@comcast.net:</a>
<blockquote cite="mid:028501d3af0c$34211cd0$9c635670$@comcast.net"
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Stefan,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Thank
you for the reminder. All of the permeable-core selection/placement and
winding improvements come to mind when you mention that number. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Correcting
the sentence below: â(ERP ratio 16dB)âŚ</span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">offset
a nominal E-W/W-E attenuation ratio (9 dB EW/WE ratio for 6Mm path) by
7dB.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Excellent
ERP, and glad that Markus pointed out the quantitative consistency of
same-month E-W and W-E link results with non-reciprocity at 8270 Hz.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">73,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Jim
AA5BW <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
 </span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Â Â Â <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; color: windowtext;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; color: windowtext;">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org">owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org">mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>DK7FC<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 26, 2018 6:34 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org">rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: LF: VLF DK7FC > W1VD 8.27 kHz EbNaut more
success!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks Jim,<br>
<br>
ERP is 400 uW. Often discussed but my statement here :-)<br>
<br>
73, Stefan<br>
<br>
Am 26.02.2018 04:31, schrieb <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:hvanesce@comcast.net:">hvanesce@comcast.net:</a> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Congratulations
Jay and Stefan, and thanks Markus for the perspectives and reference
points. I have a rough recollection of Stefanâs estimated ERP, which
would seem to slightly more than offset a nominal E-W/W-E attenuation
ratio, making Markusâ two propagation observations particularly
interesting, as is the Forest question.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Â </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Fine
work Stefan and Jay.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Â </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">73,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Â </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Jim
AA5BW Â Â </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Â </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org">owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org">mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Markus Vester<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 25, 2018 2:25 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org">rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: LF: VLF DK7FC > W1VD 8.27 kHz EbNaut more
success!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_2_362d4834-db22-41e9-b550-52583b7681cf">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Hi Jay,
Stefan, <br>
<br>
really good work, truly amazing! <br>
<br>
Noticing that Stefan hadn't sent another repeat last
night 24/25th, I wondered whether the experiment might have already
been concluded successfully -Â yes it had ;-)<br>
<br>
Considering that Joe has been making the TA W-E path with only 10 uW,
in retrospective it seems not so surprising that Stefan's much stronger
signal managed to overcome the E-W nonreciprocity. On the other
hand, when Uwe had sent a very long carrier in March 2014,
no conclusive trace was ever detected in Virginia. Now I wonder
whether Stefan's recent transmission has also been picked up in Forest?<br>
<br>
All the best,<br>
Markus (DF6NM)Â Â <br>
<br>
<br>
-----UrsprĂźngliche Mitteilung----- <br>
Von: jrusgrove <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jrusgrove@comcast.net">jrusgrove@comcast.net</a>><br>
An: (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org">rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</a>)
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org">rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</a>><br>
Verschickt: So, 25. Feb 2018 19:26<br>
Betreff: LF: VLF DK7FC > W1VD 8.27 kHz EbNaut more success!<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_2_7f79aed0-a821-4e60-81a0-ebea2b6c78c0">
<div style="margin: 8.4pt;">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Stefans
transmission:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Â </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">f =
8270.1000 Hz</span></strong><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"><br>
<strong><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Start time:
19.FEB.2018Â 22:30:00 UTC (daily)</span></strong><br>
<strong><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Symbol
period: 30 s</span></strong><br>
<strong><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Characters: 2</span></strong><br>
<strong><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">CRC bits: 22</span></strong><br>
<strong><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Coding 16K21A</span></strong><br>
<strong><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Duration:
07:12 [hh:mm]</span></strong><br>
<strong><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Antenna
current: 700 mA</span></strong></span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Â </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">After a
successful one character reception earlier in the week, we can now
report the successful reception of a 2 character message. Stacking of
3 transmissions was required (0221, 0222 and 0223). There is also
a 0224 file but it has timing issues and may or may not be usable. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Â </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">ebnaut-rx
V0.8<br>
input file C:\EbNaut\DK7FC\sum212223.wav<br>
sample rate 0.457240 per second<br>
rx frequency 8270<br>
file start time 2018-02-22 22:21:17.790<br>
polynomial 16K21A<br>
crc size 22<br>
number of chars 2<br>
block size 34<br>
symbol period 30.000<br>
number of symbols 864<br>
start offset 537.000<br>
freq offset 0.100000<br>
cores 2<br>
list length 500000<br>
skipped 538.011261 seconds to start<br>
initial reference phase 30.6<br>
---------------------------------------------<br>
found DX<br>
list rank 48426<br>
reference phase 150,150,150,150<br>
carrier S/N 11.04 dB in 38.6 uHz, -33.10 dB in 1Hz, -67.08 dB in 2.5kHz<br>
carrier Es/N0 -18.33 dB<br>
carrier Eb/N0 0.47 dB<br>
info bit period 2273.68 seconds<br>
symbol error rate 373/864 = 43.171 %<br>
Es/N0 from symbol errors -18.2 dB<br>
Eb/N0 from symbol errors 0.6 dB<br>
Shannon capacity 2.5 bits/hour<br>
Shannon efficiency 62.7 %<br>
symbols file C:\EbNaut\DK7FC\sum212223-symbols.csv<br>
elapsed 52 seconds<br>
---------------------------------------------<br>
found DX<br>
list rank 17074<br>
reference phase 120,150,120,150<br>
carrier S/N 11.19 dB in 38.6 uHz, -32.94 dB in 1Hz, -66.92 dB in 2.5kHz<br>
carrier Es/N0 -18.17 dB<br>
carrier Eb/N0 0.62 dB<br>
info bit period 2273.68 seconds<br>
symbol error rate 374/864 = 43.287 %<br>
Es/N0 from symbol errors -18.4 dB<br>
Eb/N0 from symbol errors 0.4 dB<br>
Shannon capacity 2.6 bits/hour<br>
Shannon efficiency 60.5 %<br>
symbols file C:\EbNaut\DK7FC\sum212223-symbols.csv<br>
elapsed 383 seconds</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Jay W1VDÂ
WD2XNSÂ WE2XGR/2</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Â </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Â </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Â </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Â </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
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