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Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2018 19:30:46 +0100
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Subject: Re: LF: VLF Small magnetic antenna for Tx
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Interesting.
I built a similar loop and transmitted on MF. The maximum power was 
about 30 W RF because the resonating Cs (WIMA-FKP-1, 2kV) became warm 
and the resonance drifted away. But i managed up to 450 km distance with 
that compact antenna.

You loop may become more effective when using a single piece of copper. 
Don't you have such 'endless' tubes available? Like this one: 
https://www.hornbach.de/shop/Kupferrohr-weich-22-mm-Wandstaerke-1-mm-Meterware/3308518/artikel.html

73, Stefan


Am 05.02.2018 15:13, schrieb Juan Leandro Ronda:
>     I have to say that I am also lacking in theory, but the tests 
> carried out on airborne and core coils have been successful and are 
> working.
> The most relevant loop antenna has been an octagon-shaped loop, formed 
> by 22mm diameter copper pipe of 1mm thickness, equivalent to 66mm 
> square, forming a surface of 1m square. As seen in the attached 
> diagram, I put in resonance by LC series (38400Hz) giving close to 
> 100A, which in turn gives a magnetic moment of 100A per square meter. 
> I verify that in the center of the octagon I am condensing enough the 
> magnetic flux, knowing that it is very difficult to saturate the air. 
> In summer I get to notice heating of the pipe. If I bring a euro coin 
> to the pipe, it heats up and diverts the antenna's resonance.
> Then I was forced to reduce the volume of the antenna for comfortable 
> use in underground cavities. I had to resort to using cores to keep an 
> effective area as large as possible. I tried what I had at hand, the 
> coils of the TV deflection coils and I observed good operation, I also 
> circulated a large amperage for it, giving rise to the development of 
> a new transmitter for radiolocation, it is the Summer, published in 
> the CREG JOURNAL nº99 " of the BCRA.
> I have always wanted to use the power through low voltage and a lot of 
> amperage, which will translate into great magnetic moment. It is 
> necessary to use few loops in the loop, with a large section of the 
> conductor and a high magnetic permeability core to increase the 
> effective area. I also intend to minimize the tensions in the resonant 
> circuit, there are partners who can suffer electrocution risk, since 
> the equipment works at one hundred percent humidity and other times 
> submerged.
> So far I have changed the cores of the air antennas for ferrites, and 
> now I would like to use mu-metal that has very high magnetic 
> permeability. I see hard to get that material. I have seen that they 
> manufacture rods of several cm in diameter. It would be interesting to 
> contact the manufacturer and ask for samples, if someone sees it 
> feasible to say something about it.
> I have always worked in the near field for the use of radiolocation, 
> and speaking with Luis EA5DOM, we discussed the effectiveness of using 
> the electric field or the magnetic field with air, knowing that it is 
> the magnetic that crosses the rocky pack more easily . I appreciate 
> the comments on this part by this group.
>
> https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=1V4K2T2e3ActVqPaHr1xXLcjBkD16NtGB
>
>
> Regards
> Juan Leandro
>
> El 4 feb. 2018 8:35 p. m., "Juan Leandro Ronda" <juanleronda@gmail.com 
> <mailto:juanleronda@gmail.com>> escribió:
>
>         I have to say that I am also lacking in theory, but the tests
>     carried out on airborne and core coils have been successful and
>     are working.
>     The most relevant loop antenna has been an octagon-shaped loop,
>     formed by 22mm diameter copper pipe of 1mm thickness, equivalent
>     to 66mm square, forming a surface of 1m square. As seen in the
>     attached diagram, I put in resonance by LC series (38400Hz) giving
>     close to 100A, which in turn gives a magnetic moment of 100A per
>     square meter. I verify that in the center of the octagon I am
>     condensing enough the magnetic flux, knowing that it is very
>     difficult to saturate the air. In summer I get to notice heating
>     of the pipe. If I bring a euro coin to the pipe, it heats up and
>     diverts the antenna's resonance.
>     Then I was forced to reduce the volume of the antenna for
>     comfortable use in underground cavities. I had to resort to using
>     cores to keep an effective area as large as possible. I tried what
>     I had at hand, the coils of the TV deflection coils and I observed
>     good operation, I also circulated a large amperage for it, giving
>     rise to the development of a new transmitter for radiolocation, it
>     is the Summer, published in the CREG JOURNAL nº99 " of the BCRA.
>     I have always wanted to use the power through low voltage and a
>     lot of amperage, which will translate into great magnetic moment.
>     It is necessary to use few loops in the loop, with a large section
>     of the conductor and a high magnetic permeability core to increase
>     the effective area. I also intend to minimize the tensions in the
>     resonant circuit, there are partners who can suffer electrocution
>     risk, since the equipment works at one hundred percent humidity
>     and other times submerged.
>     So far I have changed the cores of the air antennas for ferrites,
>     and now I would like to use mu-metal that has very high magnetic
>     permeability. I see hard to get that material. I have seen that
>     they manufacture rods of several cm in diameter. It would be
>     interesting to contact the manufacturer and ask for samples, if
>     someone sees it feasible to say something about it.
>     I have always worked in the near field for the use of
>     radiolocation, and speaking with Luis EA5DOM, we discussed the
>     effectiveness of using the electric field or the magnetic field
>     with air, knowing that it is the magnetic that crosses the rocky
>     pack more easily . I appreciate the comments on this part by this
>     group.
>
>     Regards
>     Juan Leandro
>
>
>     El 3 feb. 2018 21:35, "Jacek Lipkowski" <sq5bpf@lipkowski.org
>     <mailto:sq5bpf@lipkowski.org>> escribió:
>
>         On Sat, 3 Feb 2018, VIGILANT Luis Fernández wrote:
>
>             Jacek, you mentioned what I was midnight oiling here
>             " If you want some semi-DX in the H-field, then try
>             coupling into some long
>             conductors (pipes, power lines, railway tracks etc)"
>
>
>         And i forgot phone lines :)
>
>         Actually there has been a 700m phone line, that was well
>         grounded at the phone exchange (old exchange, no local modules
>         were used, so the wire went all the way there). This makes a
>         nice ground dipole when a transmitter is placed between the
>         local ground and the grounded wire from the phone line.
>         Putting abt.  30mA at 8.97kHz (this was when 9kHz was the ITU
>         limit) gave a very nice signal 600-700m from the phone line.
>
>
>             What about coupling the loop to my 90m vertical ?
>             Adding another transformer from loop to vertical or just
>             winding some coils of the vertical over the
>             small loop ring would work ?
>
>
>         No, because the amount of current induced in the mast would be
>         very small.
>
>         BTW i wish i had a 90m vertical.
>
>
>         VY 73
>
>         Jacek / SQ5BPF
>
>

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Interesting. <br>
I built a similar loop and transmitted on MF. The maximum power was
about 30 W RF because the resonating Cs (WIMA-FKP-1, 2kV) became warm
and the resonance drifted away. But i managed up to 450 km distance
with that compact antenna.<br>
<br>
You loop may become more effective when using a single piece of copper.
Don't you have such 'endless' tubes available? Like this one:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.hornbach.de/shop/Kupferrohr-weich-22-mm-Wandstaerke-1-mm-Meterware/3308518/artikel.html">https://www.hornbach.de/shop/Kupferrohr-weich-22-mm-Wandstaerke-1-mm-Meterware/3308518/artikel.html</a><br>
<br>
73, Stefan<br>
<br>
<br>
Am 05.02.2018 15:13, schrieb Juan Leandro Ronda:
<blockquote
 cite="mid:CANM5rQinSd3xiwGrpArtpeNgi-pdX934zurtUHNT_kGTQY52XQ@mail.gmail.com"
 type="cite">
  <div dir="auto">
  <div dir="auto" style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 12.8px;"> 
  I have to say that I am also lacking in theory, but the tests carried
out on airborne and core coils have been successful and are working.</div>
  <div dir="auto" style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 12.8px;">The
most relevant loop antenna has been an octagon-shaped loop, formed by
22mm diameter copper pipe of 1mm thickness, equivalent to 66mm square,
forming a surface of 1m square. As seen in the attached diagram, I put
in resonance by LC series (38400Hz) giving close to 100A, which in turn
gives a magnetic moment of 100A per square meter. I verify that in the
center of the octagon I am condensing enough the magnetic flux, knowing
that it is very difficult to saturate the air. In summer I get to
notice heating of the pipe. If I bring a euro coin to the pipe, it
heats up and diverts the antenna's resonance.</div>
  <div dir="auto" style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 12.8px;">Then
I was forced to reduce the volume of the antenna for comfortable use in
underground cavities. I had to resort to using cores to keep an
effective area as large as possible. I tried what I had at hand, the
coils of the TV deflection coils and I observed good operation, I also
circulated a large amperage for it, giving rise to the development of a
new transmitter for radiolocation, it is the Summer, published in the
CREG JOURNAL nº99 " of the BCRA.</div>
  <div dir="auto" style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 12.8px;">I
have always wanted to use the power through low voltage and a lot of
amperage, which will translate into great magnetic moment. It is
necessary to use few loops in the loop, with a large section of the
conductor and a high magnetic permeability core to increase the
effective area. I also intend to minimize the tensions in the resonant
circuit, there are partners who can suffer electrocution risk, since
the equipment works at one hundred percent humidity and other times
submerged.</div>
  <div dir="auto" style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 12.8px;">So
far I have changed the cores of the air antennas for ferrites, and now
I would like to use mu-metal that has very high magnetic permeability.
I see hard to get that material. I have seen that they manufacture rods
of several cm in diameter. It would be interesting to contact the
manufacturer and ask for samples, if someone sees it feasible to say
something about it.</div>
  <div dir="auto" style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 12.8px;">I
have always worked in the near field for the use of radiolocation, and
speaking with Luis EA5DOM, we discussed the effectiveness of using the
electric field or the magnetic field with air, knowing that it is the
magnetic that crosses the rocky pack more easily . I appreciate the
comments on this part by this group.</div>
  <div dir="auto" style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 12.8px;"><br>
  </div>
  <div dir="auto" style=""><font face="sans-serif"><span
 style="font-size: 12.8px;"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
 href="https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=1V4K2T2e3ActVqPaHr1xXLcjBkD16NtGB">https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=1V4K2T2e3ActVqPaHr1xXLcjBkD16NtGB</a></span></font><br>
  </div>
  <div dir="auto" style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 12.8px;"><br>
  </div>
  <div dir="auto" style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 12.8px;"><br>
  </div>
  <div dir="auto" style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 12.8px;">Regards</div>
  <font style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 12.8px;"
 color="#888888">
  <div dir="auto">Juan Leandro</div>
  </font></div>
  <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
  <div class="gmail_quote">El 4 feb. 2018 8:35 p. m., "Juan Leandro
Ronda" &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:juanleronda@gmail.com">juanleronda@gmail.com</a>&gt;
escribió:<br type="attribution">
  <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
 style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
    <div dir="auto">
    <div>
    <div dir="auto">    I have to say that I am also lacking in theory,
but the tests carried out on airborne and core coils have been
successful and are working.</div>
    <div dir="auto">The most relevant loop antenna has been an
octagon-shaped loop, formed by 22mm diameter copper pipe of 1mm
thickness, equivalent to 66mm square, forming a surface of 1m square.
As seen in the attached diagram, I put in resonance by LC series
(38400Hz) giving close to 100A, which in turn gives a magnetic moment
of 100A per square meter. I verify that in the center of the octagon I
am condensing enough the magnetic flux, knowing that it is very
difficult to saturate the air. In summer I get to notice heating of the
pipe. If I bring a euro coin to the pipe, it heats up and diverts the
antenna's resonance.</div>
    <div dir="auto">Then I was forced to reduce the volume of the
antenna for comfortable use in underground cavities. I had to resort to
using cores to keep an effective area as large as possible. I tried
what I had at hand, the coils of the TV deflection coils and I observed
good operation, I also circulated a large amperage for it, giving rise
to the development of a new transmitter for radiolocation, it is the
Summer, published in the CREG JOURNAL nº99 " of the BCRA.</div>
    <div dir="auto">I have always wanted to use the power through low
voltage and a lot of amperage, which will translate into great magnetic
moment. It is necessary to use few loops in the loop, with a large
section of the conductor and a high magnetic permeability core to
increase the effective area. I also intend to minimize the tensions in
the resonant circuit, there are partners who can suffer electrocution
risk, since the equipment works at one hundred percent humidity and
other times submerged.</div>
    <div dir="auto">So far I have changed the cores of the air antennas
for ferrites, and now I would like to use mu-metal that has very high
magnetic permeability. I see hard to get that material. I have seen
that they manufacture rods of several cm in diameter. It would be
interesting to contact the manufacturer and ask for samples, if someone
sees it feasible to say something about it.</div>
    <div dir="auto">I have always worked in the near field for the use
of radiolocation, and speaking with Luis EA5DOM, we discussed the
effectiveness of using the electric field or the magnetic field with
air, knowing that it is the magnetic that crosses the rocky pack more
easily . I appreciate the comments on this part by this group.</div>
    <div dir="auto"><br>
    </div>
    <div dir="auto">Regards</div>
    <div dir="auto">Juan Leandro</div>
    <br>
    <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
    <div class="gmail_quote">El 3 feb. 2018 21:35, "Jacek Lipkowski"
&lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:sq5bpf@lipkowski.org"
 target="_blank">sq5bpf@lipkowski.org</a>&gt; escribió:<br
 type="attribution">
    <blockquote class="m_-958651950714952091quote"
 style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
      <div class="m_-958651950714952091quoted-text">On Sat, 3 Feb 2018,
VIGILANT Luis Fernández wrote:<br>
      <br>
      <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
 style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Jacek, you mentioned what I was midnight oiling here<br>
" If you want some semi-DX in the H-field, then try coupling into some
long<br>
conductors (pipes, power lines, railway tracks etc)"<br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      </div>
And i forgot phone lines :)<br>
      <br>
Actually there has been a 700m phone line, that was well grounded at
the phone exchange (old exchange, no local modules were used, so the
wire went all the way there). This makes a nice ground dipole when a
transmitter is placed between the local ground and the grounded wire
from the phone line. Putting abt.  30mA at 8.97kHz (this was when 9kHz
was the ITU limit) gave a very nice signal 600-700m from the phone line.
      <div class="m_-958651950714952091quoted-text"><br>
      <br>
      <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
 style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
What about coupling the loop to my 90m vertical ?<br>
Adding another transformer from loop to vertical or just winding some
coils of the vertical over the<br>
small loop ring would work ?<br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      </div>
No, because the amount of current induced in the mast would be very
small.<br>
      <br>
BTW i wish i had a 90m vertical.
      <div class="m_-958651950714952091elided-text"><br>
      <br>
VY 73<br>
      <br>
Jacek / SQ5BPF</div>
    </blockquote>
    </div>
    <br>
    </div>
    </div>
    </div>
  </blockquote>
  </div>
  </div>
</blockquote>
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