Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by klubnl.pl (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id v9OLiwMK020505 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 23:45:00 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1e76uy-0000kb-J5 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 22:39:24 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1e76ux-0000kS-Jx for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 22:39:23 +0100 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1e76ut-0000pR-Vk for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 22:39:22 +0100 Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B8ED20A30 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 23:39:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 3yM69K1672zyl2 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 23:39:16 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <59EFB304.7030801@posteo.de> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 23:39:16 +0200 From: DK7FC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; de; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <15f4fe3f580-c0a-1eb41@webjas-vad140.srv.aolmail.net> In-Reply-To: <15f4fe3f580-c0a-1eb41@webjas-vad140.srv.aolmail.net> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Hi Markus, Thanks for the results. So the night/day SNR ratio looks much better than on 6.47 kHz for us. Am 18.10.2017 11:12, schrieb DK7FC: > Am 17.10.2017 22:55, schrieb Markus Vester: >> As a crude first Approximation to the model, we might look only at >> groundwave and single-hop skywave. For 230 km range, the geometrical >> path difference would be 63.3 km (1.37 lambda) for 90 km reflection >> height (night), and 40.3 km (0.87 lambda) for 70 km (day). > > For *5170 Hz* it is 1.09 lambda during the nights and 1.44 lambda > during the days. That's even closer to 1 lambda or 1.5 lambda, so here > we would expect an even stronger experessed day/night difference, if > this propagation model is reasonable over that distance. > We will check that! [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: 16a6530e4735ccb856cf9bc7c6cb9773 Subject: Re: VLF: 300 mA on 5170 Hz Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------030509020208080903090701" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.0 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, HTML_TITLE_EMPTY autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030509020208080903090701 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Markus, Thanks for the results. So the night/day SNR ratio looks much better than on 6.47 kHz for us. Am 18.10.2017 11:12, schrieb DK7FC: > Am 17.10.2017 22:55, schrieb Markus Vester: >> As a crude first Approximation to the model, we might look only at >> groundwave and single-hop skywave. For 230 km range, the geometrical >> path difference would be 63.3 km (1.37 lambda) for 90 km reflection >> height (night), and 40.3 km (0.87 lambda) for 70 km (day). > > For *5170 Hz* it is 1.09 lambda during the nights and 1.44 lambda > during the days. That's even closer to 1 lambda or 1.5 lambda, so here > we would expect an even stronger experessed day/night difference, if > this propagation model is reasonable over that distance. > We will check that! ...now, can you say something about the daytime / nighttime levels (not SNR). Actually the daytime signal should be quite invisible when the geometrical path difference explains the propagation in that range. But i saw the signal at up to 15 dB in 424 uHz, actually the best daytime SNR on all bands tested between us so far. So again, the oppsite to the expected?!? 58 km is an ideal band for us. Also your recent carrier was 'O copy' even in 424 uHz. Don't you like to send your call or so in EbNaut during daytime? I might catch it in less than 5 hours!, e.g. http://abelian.org/ebnaut/calc.php?sndb=10&snbws=0.000424&snmps=&code=16K21&sp=15&crc=16&nc=5&submit=Calculate 73, Stefan Am 24.10.2017 21:37, schrieb Markus Vester: > Good nighttime results at DL0AO on this frequency, using only 8.9 > hours of data from the 31.4 uHz western cardioid instance. Decoder > output was equal from the two available nights, so surely correct. > Summing both with equal weights produced slightly less than the > expected 3 dB gain. > > Carrier-based Eb/N0: > ================ > 20/21 (no data recorded) > 22/23 5.5 dB > 23/24 5.8 dB > sum 8.3 dB > > Best 73, > Markus (DF6NM) > > > -----Ursprüngliche Mitteilung----- > Von: DK7FC > An: rsgb_lf_group > Verschickt: Di, 24. Okt 2017 18:58 > Betreff: Re: VLF: 300 mA on 5170 Hz > > ...the message was running on the 20th, 22th and 23th. > > Today i made a mistake in the SpecLab settings which unfortunetely > affectet the transmission. > I watched the alternating colours (due to the PSK) and saw that it > doesn't switch the phase as expected. Then i quickly restartet > SpecLab, it was bit chaotic but now it should work again. Since the > symbol length is 3 minutes it was easy to delete the first 11 symbols > and start this special file at 16:33:00 UTC. All in all just the first > 8 symbols are affected. 2 of them were transmitted correctly > (productive), 2 of them have opposite phase (destructive) and 4 were > not transmitted (not really neutral but not so dramatic). > Fortunately the transmission takes 12 hours, so 24 minutes is just 3.3 > % or -0.15 dB. > The transmimission should now continue as expected. > Just a note for those who follow it... > > 73, Stefan > > > Am 20.10.2017 16:11, schrieb DK7FC: > > > *f = 5170.1000 Hz > Start time: 20.October.2017 16:00:00 UTC (daily) > Symbol period: 180 s > Characters: 1 > CRC bits: 6 > Coding 8K19A > Duration: 12h > Antenna current: 300 mA* > --------------030509020208080903090701 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Markus,

Thanks for the results. So the night/day SNR ratio looks much better than on 6.47 kHz for us.

Am 18.10.2017 11:12, schrieb DK7FC:
Am 17.10.2017 22:55, schrieb Markus Vester:
As a crude first Approximation to the model, we might look only at groundwave and single-hop skywave. For 230 km range, the geometrical path difference would be 63.3 km (1.37 lambda) for 90 km reflection height (night), and 40.3 km (0.87 lambda) for 70 km (day).

For 5170 Hz it is 1.09 lambda during the nights and 1.44 lambda during the days. That's even closer to 1 lambda or 1.5 lambda, so here we would expect an even stronger experessed day/night difference, if this propagation model is reasonable over that distance.
We will check that!

...now, can you say something about the daytime / nighttime levels (not SNR).  Actually the daytime signal should be quite invisible when the geometrical path difference explains the propagation in that range. But i saw the signal at up to 15 dB in 424 uHz, actually the best daytime SNR on all bands tested between us so far. So again, the oppsite to the expected?!?

58 km is an ideal band for us. Also your recent carrier was 'O copy' even in 424 uHz.
Don't you like to send your call or so in EbNaut during daytime? I might catch it in less than 5 hours!, e.g. http://abelian.org/ebnaut/calc.php?sndb=10&snbws=0.000424&snmps=&code=16K21&sp=15&crc=16&nc=5&submit=Calculate

73, Stefan


Am 24.10.2017 21:37, schrieb Markus Vester:
Good nighttime results at DL0AO on this frequency, using only 8.9 hours of data from the 31.4 uHz western cardioid instance. Decoder output was equal from the two available nights, so surely correct. Summing both with equal weights produced slightly less than the expected 3 dB gain.

Carrier-based Eb/N0:
================
20/21 (no data recorded)
22/23  5.5 dB
23/24  5.8 dB
sum    8.3 dB

Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)


-----Ursprüngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: DK7FC <selberdenken@posteo.de>
An: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Verschickt: Di, 24. Okt 2017 18:58
Betreff: Re: VLF: 300 mA on 5170 Hz

...the message was running on the 20th, 22th and 23th.

Today i made a mistake in the SpecLab settings which unfortunetely affectet the transmission.
I watched the alternating colours (due to the PSK) and saw that it doesn't switch the phase as expected. Then i quickly restartet SpecLab, it was bit chaotic but now it should work again. Since the symbol length is 3 minutes it was easy to delete the first 11 symbols and start this special file at 16:33:00 UTC. All in all just the first 8 symbols are affected. 2 of them were transmitted correctly (productive), 2 of them have opposite phase (destructive) and 4 were not transmitted (not really neutral but not so dramatic).
Fortunately the transmission takes 12 hours, so 24 minutes is just 3.3 % or -0.15 dB.
The transmimission should now continue as expected.
Just a note for those who follow it...

73, Stefan


Am 20.10.2017 16:11, schrieb DK7FC:

f = 5170.1000 Hz
Start time: 20.October.2017  16:00:00 UTC (daily)
Symbol period: 180 s
Characters: 1
CRC bits: 6
Coding 8K19A
Duration: 12h
Antenna current: 300 mA

--------------030509020208080903090701--