Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v0CJV0AF004285 for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2017 20:31:01 +0100 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1cRl1f-000378-HF for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2017 19:27:07 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1cRl1e-00036z-Ua for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2017 19:27:06 +0000 Received: from porthos.netcom.co.uk ([217.72.171.73]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1cRl1c-00046f-Bf for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2017 19:27:05 +0000 X-DKIM-Result: Domain=abelian.org Result=Signature OK DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=abelian.org ; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To: MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From:References:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=EezjYZ/4O6hnSPitCBcayyCJilpehaqaUncnK/Fi3Xo=; b=iHfX6Q1oYre+CTrBLzpuLNJ+sL CWS7Vo1Z4dLu/oNIjLOYxo/4qrTdU308GDTeUSpoIzzfNGxO33xiRBayz+1YfpdrDTpU0cnfd09hk h/7q+/FPPoA5TUIZQorPF+87pp47UbFodmChSCMpb8pUTbV1D5NMDMR+JEXJtGW9jxvY=; Received: from i-194-106-52-83.freedom2surf.net ([194.106.52.83]:47771 helo=pn.abelian.org) by porthos.netcom.co.uk with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1cRl1c-00023A-3H for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2017 19:27:04 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pn.abelian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B92940002B for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2017 19:27:03 +0000 (UTC) To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <5872C893.80807@abelian.org> From: Paul Nicholson Message-ID: <5877D887.3090705@abelian.org> Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 19:27:03 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - porthos.netcom.co.uk X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - blacksheep.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - abelian.org X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: porthos.netcom.co.uk: authenticated_id: catchall@abelian.org X-Authenticated-Sender: porthos.netcom.co.uk: catchall@abelian.org X-Scan-Signature: 64437c466041e93ffedda7fb96b22b71 Subject: Re: LF: Wideband EbNaut with prefix? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 10179 Roger wrote: > With QRSS3 6km was my limit some years ago. Very impressive. I think that to substantially increase the range, ultra narrow band signals would be the way to go, just as with VLF radio. I haven't seen anyone try earth mode with very narrow bandwidth using GPS disciplined signals and receivers. I expect the path would be very stable and quite suitable for long integration times. I don't think these undisciplined EbNaut experiments would do very well, the bandwidth is too wide - has to be to get the message across before the phase drifts too far to decode. My experiments and calculations use loop coupling - I don't know how to calculate for earth dipoles. Using a spice model to simulate performance of two 50cm loops, a 5W transmission of prefixed EbNaut decodes at about 1500m without much trouble. I'm struggling to improve on the 1.25dB Eb/N0 cost. It seems to take very little energy to make a detectable prefix to draw attention to the signal and to indicate the message length and coding, and to lock onto the symbol timing. The expensive part is getting enough signal to measure the frequency accurately enough to get away with undisciplined oscillators. At slightly stronger signals, eg Eb/N0 of 3 or 4dB it becomes pretty solid and the squared signal begins to provide a good enough phase and frequency reference. The combination of a short prefix, say 0.5dB worth, and GPS timed tx and rx, would work well for un-announced transmissions. -- Paul Nicholson --