Return-Path: X-Spam-DCC: paranoid 1233; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL, FORGED_RCVD_HELO,RATWARE_GECKO_BUILD,SPF_PASS autolearn=no version=3.1.3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by paranoid.lipkowski.org (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id uAIMQ0jW000656 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2016 23:26:00 +0100 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1c7rXq-00040b-Dm for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Fri, 18 Nov 2016 22:22:06 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1c7rXp-00040S-DS for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 18 Nov 2016 22:22:05 +0000 Received: from porthos.netcom.co.uk ([217.72.171.73]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1c7rXm-0004rr-2d for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 18 Nov 2016 22:22:04 +0000 X-DKIM-Result: Domain=abelian.org Result=Signature OK DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=abelian.org ; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To: MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From:References:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=p6pNbhA8ZuJY/Wgwqs7kbnELoKR4MlSep7p0gy0a2SY=; b=He+FSnYBA1DABwz9Fv5WSEdnGH pHCnZWzGFUpMXSlQJl1lvlOdmWFPjs9/4Zxs//vqFkInsCTMuI3oX3AEg38Jc7r3wM425omiOhyVv CpMyq7pMVNCh0ahwuBLdo9WUjcit1ngKWUfP99d8FBqFK7fiXoJa6Q9u7iCT3t4/GLFU=; Received: from i-194-106-52-83.freedom2surf.net ([194.106.52.83]:33297 helo=pn.abelian.org) by porthos.netcom.co.uk with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1c7rXk-0002NZ-Sd for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 18 Nov 2016 22:22:01 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pn.abelian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40079400A56 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2016 22:22:00 +0000 (UTC) To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <154c32c4dba-373a-24653@webprd-m58.mail.aol.com> <581C3027.8050003@abelian.org> <581C8660.1070709@posteo.de> <581C90C7.5030809@abelian.org> <581C95BC.6010602@posteo.de> <581DA8E4.5010701@abelian.org> <581DB9C0.10602@posteo.de> <581DCF2E.5090902@abelian.org> <581F9797.9060709@abelian.org> <5824A47D.3060108@posteo.de> <58260EC4.70903@abelian.org> <58261368.60901@posteo.de> <58261772.3050508@abelian.org> <5826BF91.6070907@abelian.org> <5826DB6E.1060000@abelian.org> <58276523.4000204@abelian.org> <5829D9E1.2020801@posteo.de> <582A0BF2.5070101@abelian.org> <582AB6CD.5090603@abelian.org> <582B12B2.7080708@posteo.de> <582B3823.8090504@abelian.org> <582B4466.5070106@abelian.org> <582B6E8B.4090207@posteo.de> <117DEE4AF4DD44F59CB 455664AD7695B@gnat> <046701d23fb3$ab36d900$01a48b00$@comcast.net> <582C19D6.5080808@abelian.org> <582CA9F0.2040306@abelian.org> <582DEE31.2090909@posteo.de> <582DF4E8.4090203@abelian.org> <582F3D04.80900@abelian.org> <582F6056.9060903@posteo.de> From: Paul Nicholson Message-ID: <582F7F08.6050608@abelian.org> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 22:22:00 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <582F6056.9060903@posteo.de> X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - porthos.netcom.co.uk X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - blacksheep.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - abelian.org X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: porthos.netcom.co.uk: authenticated_id: catchall@abelian.org X-Authenticated-Sender: porthos.netcom.co.uk: catchall@abelian.org X-Scan-Signature: c6a8ca7629fac3d35507e5a7fd3cbf17 Subject: Re: VLF: EbNaut transmissions on lower frequencies?, pre-tests: 6.47kHz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 10.1.3.11 Content-Length: 2734 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 9490 It looks clear that coherently stacking repeated messages does work as expected, in fact works quite well at 6470 Hz because we have seen that the day-to-day and night-to-night phase variations are quite small. So long as we normalise each reception by dividing by its total RMS value before summing, we get some small additional gain even when a reception is poor quality. Repeating a message N times is theoretically not as effective as sending the message once using N times as many symbols to exploit a lower rate stronger coding. In both case Eb increases by the factor N while N0 remains constant, so both methods have an overall factor N increase of Eb/N0. But the single transmission with the stronger code has a better chance of decoding at that Eb/N0. However, if you're already using the strongest available code and you have increased symbol duration to the point where your message duration is just short of hitting a terminator, then the only option is to repeat and stack. To reliably exploit repeats, both tx and rx need to be either glitch-free or have absolute phase (so that after a reset it continues with the same phase). Stefan wrote: > Would it makes sense, when we try the longest VLF message ever > (it must be 75 characters, i found an important message! :-) ), > to run day and night transmissions? Yes, I can adjust for a nominal 28.8 nighttime phase lag and combine day and night. But we don't get much contribution from the nights though. About four nights make up for one day. 75 chars will be interesting, 150 Gbyte of RAM for a K=25 decode, only 2 Gbyte for a K=19 decode, 8 Gbyte for K=21. Average daytime S/N has been -60.8 dB in 2500 Hz. Plugging that into the signal calculator gives http://abelian.org/ebnaut/calc.php?sndb=-60.8&snbws=2500&snmps=&code=8K19&sp=60&crc=16&nc=4 for the TEST messages with 60 second symbols. For 75 chars within 8 hours we might use 8K19 and 7 second symbols http://abelian.org/ebnaut/calc.php?sndb=-60.8&snbws=2500&snmps=&code=8K19&sp=7&crc=16&nc=75 or 3.5 second symbols with 16K21 http://abelian.org/ebnaut/calc.php?sndb=-60.8&snbws=2500&snmps=&code=16K21&sp=3.5&crc=16&nc=75 We need about 10dB stacking gain, so about 10 daytime repeats but we might decode at 8 days. Bielefeld has average S/N -58.6 dB and would have a good chance of decoding in 5 or 6 day repeats. > What about all the other stations out there, RX and/or TX? > Are we alone now with our special stuff? We are surely alone here! Who would do this crazy stuff? Counting electrons for a week in 35uHz bandwidth? Here I find a certain 'gemuetlichkeit' in spending the long winter evenings teasing ludicrously weak signals out of the noise. -- Paul Nicholson --