Return-Path: Received: from mtain-md02.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-md02.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.96.86]) by air-di02.mail.aol.com (v127_r1.1) with ESMTP id MAILINDI023-eabc4b8331d3322; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 20:39:31 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-md02.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id A0182380000B0; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 20:39:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Njjiu-0007B2-L2 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 01:38:04 +0000 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Njjit-0007At-Br for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 01:38:03 +0000 Received: from mail-qy0-f180.google.com ([209.85.221.180]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Njjip-0007Js-SD for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 01:38:03 +0000 Received: by qyk10 with SMTP id 10so1681112qyk.19 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:37:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=7uq65ZkVqGObDNy+sEAKBsT2Tm4zrB43U8wwyGGNa5g=; b=on83m2gHWVsOoCIeYkaHmnYXax6U5eFWRMwLaTgCDTiMyFkFDWbB4g8kpHfEEmb58i 7cGQKy+zgFhGtZ3c8DResSbEiuvMWZYHtSKvSywUEXs2DfvBsMKO6Js4h+Yow6bw9crl 2NziESS/u7nCzd8rRZaGFRb+JJ2wG/+PFhfYY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=WyvI9XzfeLITp/rAUGoTaZWTuLO1ZbqlXb0gL5NZzZ7Cz5HevO5UmesfGrng+uCJMe Z3imnFRuosH9u9upmWnWnvF+RdnNAMzbiMfKZHn1wnfQDykZiUqbozllIk7XhweHD1CU s0qyAPZMTLjS4xJv0ybI5NBuP3uXE1H3VWU5g= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.13.144 with SMTP id c16mr3448346qaa.85.1266889067553; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:37:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 20:37:47 -0500 Message-ID: <57a24ca71002221737t57dfcd1bn51a188b5c004104d@mail.gmail.com> From: Warren Ziegler To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,HTML_TAG_EXIST_TBODY=0.126 Subject: Broadband over Sewer was (Re: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00c09f99df20d76a9804803a9832 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, HTML_TAG_EXISTS_TBODY autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-m253.1 ; domain : gmail.com DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d60564b8331d176d5 X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) --00c09f99df20d76a9804803a9832 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob, >werent there some tests using the sewer pipes as antennas ? That was a Dilbert comic Broadband Over Sewer Lines a parody on BPL. http://www.dilbert.com/strips/comic/2003-09-08/ --=20 73 Warren K2ORS WD2XGJ WD2XSH/23 WE2XEB/2 WE2XGR/1 On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 6:31 PM, wrote: > werent there some tests using the sewer pipes as antennas ? > the cast iron increase in IR losses would be off set by the diameter > of the Pipe ?? I kinda remember something about that some years ago > > Bob K3DJC > > On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 00:12:03 +0100 Rik Strobbe < > Rik.Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be> writes: > > Pete, > > what about putting a large (1..10nF) cap from the antenna base to ground= ? > It would reduce the required inductance with a factor 10 to 100 and at= the > same time transform the high loss resistance (I gues 1kOhm or more) to= a > more convenient value. > Of course the cap needs to handle the high antenna voltage, so power sho= uld > be more modest than 780 Watt. > A ready available source of HV caps is RG8 / RG213 or similiar coax cabl= e > that can handle many kV's. At 101pF/m you would 10 to 100m cable. > > 73, Rik > > ------------------------------ > *Van:* owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [ > owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens M0FMT [m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk] > *Verzonden:* maandag 22 februari 2010 23:43 > > *Aan:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Onderwerp:* RE: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz > > Yep Rik > > So how do I load it? > > I agree there is about 780 Watts being disapated in the coil so it would > act like a one bar electric fire while the wire held out before melting. > > I have other options of about 400 watts, 250 Watts and about 100 Watts= of > audio to try out. > > I need a plan that does not contain unobtainum like most of the RSGB > designs in the LF Handbook. > > I want to use an air core transformer if at all possible....... there is > a lot of pontificating on this reflector about this subject but I am loo= king > for a practical method of loading a wire antenna and need help, ideas-wi= se. > > If I can load it with any of the power levels above there are LF station= s > who may cooperate in doing an RX test like G7NKS about 6.5 km away possi= bly > G3xiz or M0jxm roughly 10km away. > > May be trying to load a piece of wire, which is a miniscule fraction of= a > wave length, in the conventional way is not the answer. > > So I am open to ideas (practical ones)...... anyone?? > 73 es GL petefmt > > --- On *Mon, 22/2/10, Rik Strobbe * wrote: > > > From: Rik Strobbe > Subject: RE: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz > To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" > Date: Monday, 22 February, 2010, 21:24 > > Pete, > > 2.5km Cu wire of 0.2mm has a resistance of 1345 Ohm. > So even if the coil doen't get hot by the HV it certainly will by the > dissipated power. > > 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T > > ------------------------------ > *Van:* owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [ > owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens M0FMT [m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk] > *Verzonden:* maandag 22 februari 2010 19:19 > *Aan:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Onderwerp:* RE: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz > > Hi Group > > Using software to calculate what I would need to load my inv "L" on 8.9 > kc/s with my 8 Ohm O/P 800 Watt audio amp I get :- > A coil/transformer of about 1 Henry which with my air cored former is 14= 00 > turns, > 2.5 km length, of 0.2mm diameter wire. > A coupling loop of about 2 turns. > Creating an antenna current of about 1 amp being driven by about 60kVolt= s. > Making a coil that will be getting pretty hot!!!!! Probably red hot. > Any suggestions?? > > > > > 73 es GL petefmt > > --- On *Mon, 22/2/10, James Cowburn * wrote: > > > From: James Cowburn > Subject: RE: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Date: Monday, 22 February, 2010, 16:31 > > All we need is a wire strung between K2 and Everest summits and fed from > base camp below? > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] > On Behalf Of Warren Ziegler > Sent: 22 February 2010 16:23 > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Subject: Re: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz > > No license is required in the US below 9kHz. > > I agree with Mal its very difficult to radiate a signal on 137kHz, let > alone 9kHz! > -- > 73 Warren K2ORS > WD2XGJ > WD2XSH/23 > WE2XEB/2 > WE2XGR/1 > > > > On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 11:10 AM, ALAN MELIA > > > wrote: > > Hi as far as the Uk is concerned it is not allowed. You probably need= to > contact Andy G4JNT for details he did approach the regulator at one time > maybe around 2001/2 when Geri was doing his tests the answer as I rememb= er > was:- > > Frequencies below 10kHz are not allocated by International Treaty but= we > control all frequencies between DC and gamma rays, and no we will not be > issuing any licences for that region. > > > > I believe that was the RadioCommunications Agency things may be differ= ent > now with Ofcomm. The best person to know whether an approach would be > worthwhile would be John Gould G4WKL who nursed the 500k stuff through. > > > > Alan G3NYK > > > > --- On Mon, 22/2/10, Stefan_Sch=E4fer > > > wrote: > > > >> From: Stefan_Sch=E4fer > > > >> Subject: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz > >> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > >> Date: Monday, 22 February, 2010, 11:32 > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Ok Roger, > >> > >> > >> > >> And do you know if f<9kHz is free for other countries in > >> europe as > >> well? What about the UK? > >> > >> > >> > >> If such a grounded dipole is best, than it is easy to build > >> a big > >> antenna without the problems we have on LF (getting the > >> wire high above > >> ground). So we also could try big/long antennas. Waht do > >> you mean with > >> amateur levels? Power range is clear, something arround > >> 500W+-6dB. But > >> the antenna? Sure, if you think about building an antenna > >> in the > >> garden, say 2x20m, is not very effective but what about > >> 2x500m in a > >> forrest, perhaps with the loading coils (which will be on a > >> ferrite > >> toroid i think) mounted 300m apart from the center? That > >> could be > >> interesting and easy to try. No tower, no earth radials, > >> just 2 wires > >> hung up on some trees and measured the impedance at the > >> feed point, > >> that would be a first step. > >> > >> This antenna will still be bad but what we are doing -on LF > >> it is the > >> same- is beeing fascinated to reach a good distance and > >> make some > >> contacts at very low frequencies, although it would be much > >> easier on > >> 40/80m... > >> > >> And so, if one would reach 50km with such a short dipole, > >> the > >> fascination would be enormous, isn't it? ;-) > >> > >> > >> > >> Has anyone, except Horst, tried such experiments as well? > >> > >> > >> > >> With the ground wave, one could reach the whole europe, i > >> expect. But > >> that are dreams... > >> > >> > >> > >> Stefan/DK7FC > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Am 22.02.2010 11:03, schrieb Roger Lapthorn: > >> > >> At this frequency, widely spaced, grounded > >> electrode pairs are > >> probably the best "antenna". There are > >> references to how these work in > >> the literature (for example NATO AGAARD papers from the > >> 1960s, > >> available on the internet I believe) and on one of the > >> German ham sites > >> (DK8KW) - see http://www.qru.de/#vlf . > > >> > >> Don't expect great ranges: up to 10kms is a fair > >> aim with modern > >> signal processing technology and reasonable (amateur > >> levels) available > >> power. Project Sanguine achieved worldwide coverage to > >> submarines at > >> 76Hz (yes Hertz!) but used enormous power and antennas > >> stretching for > >> 100s of kms. > >> > >> 73s > >> Roger G3XBM > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> 2010/2/22 Stefan Sch=E4fer > >> > > > >> > >> Hello Horst, > >> > >> > >> > >> That sounds really nice. If it would be easy to find some > >> motivated OMs > >> in the near field (31km) ;-), that would be an interesting > >> field to > >> test. > >> > >> > >> > >> Yesterday i have thought about possible antenna > >> configurations for that > >> range and got the idea that one could use a forrest as an > >> antenna > >> tower. There, you could hang up 100s meters of wire, in > >> series and in > >> parallel. You do not need to have that area beside your > >> house. Nobody > >> will see the wire and nobody will care about it. > >> > >> Since summer 2007 i have a horizontal loop antenna mounted > >> in some > >> trees on my hill with excellent results on all HF bands and > >> also 160m. > >> The loop has 130m and is mounted up to 12m above ground. > >> Perfect > >> matching from 160m to 10m with my symmetric tuner. I even > >> tried > >> matching on 2200m without a problem but with bad ODX > >> results, of > >> course. But if one would try 2x 10*100m on VLF, the ODX > >> would be > >> interesting... > >> > >> > >> > >> JO30OT is abt 160km from JN49IS and thus a little far i > >> think ;-) > >> > >> > >> > >> What is your RX antenna and have you already catched some > >> commercial > >> VLF stations in that range? Are there some? > >> > >> > >> > >> 73, Stefan > >> > >> > >> > >> PS: One can be sure that there will never be SSB operation > >> ;-) > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> > >> > >> > >> Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > >> im Auftrag von Horst St=F6cker > >> > >> > >> Gesendet: Mo 22.02.2010 09:29 > >> > >> An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > >> > >> > >> Betreff: RE: LF: AW: Beaconing on 8.79 kHz in QRSS > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Hallo Stefan, > >> > >> > >> > >> there was a notice in Funkamateur 12/05, S. 1287, that in > >> DL the range > >> <9kHz is free. > >> > >> > >> > >> I could not believe that so I asked the BNetzA and after a > >> while I got > >> a letter which confirmed that. > >> > >> > >> > >> So there nothing you've got to do for getting a > >> licence. You do not > >> need one. > >> > >> > >> > >> There is no limitation of technical parameters like > >> bandwith or power. > >> > >> > >> > >> Hard to believe in german, but obviously true. > >> > >> > >> > >> My QTH is Siegburg JO30OT > >> > >> > >> > >> Horst > >> > >> ___________________________________________________________ > >> > >> NEU: Mit WEB.DE DSL =FCber 1000,- =BF sparen! > >> > >> http://produkte.web.de/go/02/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> > >> > >> http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ > >> > >> http://www.g3xbm.co.uk > >> > >> http://www.youtube.com/user/G3XBM > >> > >> G3XBM GQRP 1678 ISWL > >> G11088 > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> ---------------------------- > >> Dipl.-Ing. Stefan Sch=E4fer > >> Institut f=FCr Umweltphysik der Universit=E4t > >> Heidelberg > >> Im Neuenheimer Feld 229 > >> D-69120 Heidelberg, Germany > >> > >> schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de > >> Phone: (+49) (0)6221 546387 > >> Fax: (+49) (0)6221 546405 > >> > >> www.iup.uni-heidelberg.de > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > Nutrition > Improve your career health. Click now to study nutrition! > --=20 73 Warren K2ORS WD2XGJ WD2XSH/23 WE2XEB/2 WE2XGR/1 --00c09f99df20d76a9804803a9832 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob,
>werent there some tests using the sewer pipes as antennas ?

=A0=A0That was a Dilbert comic Broadband Over Sewe= r Lines a parody on BPL.
http://www.dilbert.com/strips/comic/2003-09-08/
--=A0
73 Warren K2ORS
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0WD2XGJ=A0<= br>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0WD2XSH/23
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= =A0WE2XEB/2
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0WE2XGR/1

=



On Mon, Feb= 22, 2010 at 6:31 PM, <riese-k3djc@juno.com> wrote:
werent there some tests using the sewer pipes as antennas ?
the cast iron increase in IR losses would be off set by the diameter<= /div>
of the Pipe=A0 ?? I kinda remember something about that some years=20 ago
=A0
Bob K3DJC
=A0
On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 00:12:03 +0100 Rik Strobbe <Rik.Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be= >=20 writes:
Pete= ,
=A0
what about putting a= large (1..10nF) cap=20 from the antenna base to ground ?
It would reduce the re= quired inductance=20 with a factor 10 to 100 and at the same time transform the high loss=20 resistance (I gues 1kOhm or more) to a more convenient value.
Of course the cap need= s to handle the=20 high antenna voltage, so power should be more modest than 780=20 Watt.
A ready available sour= ce of HV caps is=20 RG8 / RG213 or similiar coax cable that can handle many kV's. At 101= pF/m you=20 would 10 to 100m cable.
=A0
73, Rik
=A0
Van: owner-rsg= b_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens M0FMT=20 [m0fmt@yahoo.co.u= k]
Verzonden: maandag 22 februari 2010=20 23:43

Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.= org
Onderwerp: RE: LF:=20 VLF_8.79 kHz

Yep Rik
=A0
So how do=A0I load it?
=A0
I agree there is about 780 Watts being disapated in the coil= so it=20 would act like a one bar electric fire while the wire held out bef= ore=20 melting.
=A0
I have other options of about 400 watts, 250 Watts and about= 100=20 Watts of audio to try out.
=A0
I need a plan that does not contain unobtainum like most of= the=20 RSGB designs in the LF Handbook.
=A0
I want to use an air core transformer if at all possible.....= ..=20 there=A0is a=A0lot of pontificating on this reflector=A0about=20 this subject but=A0I am looking for a practical method of loading= a=20 wire antenna and need help, ideas-wise.=A0

If I can load it with any=A0of the power levels=20 above=A0there are=A0LF stations who may cooperate in doing an RX= =20 test like=A0G7NKS about 6.5 km away possibly G3xiz or=20 M0jxm=A0roughly 10km away.
=A0
May be trying to load a piece of wire, which is a miniscule= =20 fraction of a wave length,=A0in the conventional way is not the=20 answer.
=A0
So=A0I am open to ideas (practical ones)......=20 anyone??=A0
73 es GL petefmt

--- On Mon, 22/2/10, Rik Strobbe= =20 <Rik.Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be> wrote:
From:=20 Rik Strobbe <Rik.Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be>
Subject: RE: LF:= =20 VLF_8.79 kHz
To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org"=20 <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Date: Monday, 22 February,= =20 2010, 21:24

=20
Pete,
=A0
2.5km Cu wire= of 0.2mm has a=20 resistance of 1345 Ohm.
So even if the= coil doen't get=20 hot by the HV it certainly will by the dissipated power.<= /div>
=A0
73, Rik=A0 ON7= YD -=20 OR7T
=A0
Van:=20 owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens M0FMT=20 [m0fmt@ya= hoo.co.uk]
Verzonden: maandag 22 februari 2010=20 19:19
Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Onderwerp:=20 RE: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz

Hi Group
=A0
Using software to calculate what I would need to load= my=20 inv "L"=A0 on 8.9 kc/s with my 8 Ohm O/P=A0800= Watt audio=20 amp I get :-
A coil/transformer of about 1 Henry which with my air= cored=20 former is 1400 turns,
2.5 km length, of 0.2mm diameter wire.
A coupling loop of about 2 turns.
Creating an antenna current of about 1 amp being driv= en by=20 about 60kVolts. Making=A0a coil that will be getting prett= y=20 hot!!!!! Probably red hot.
Any suggestions??
=A0
=A0
=A0=A0

73 es GL petefmt

--- On Mon,= =20 22/2/10, James Cowburn=20 <james.cowburn@virgin.net> wrote:

From:=20 James Cowburn <james.cowburn@virgin.net>
Subject: RE:= =20 LF: VLF_8.79 kHz
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Date= :=20 Monday, 22 February, 2010, 16:31

All= we need is a wire strung between K2=20 and Everest summits and fed from
base camp=20 below?



-----Original Message-----
From= : owner-rsgb_lf_gro= up@blacksheep.org
[mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On=20 Behalf Of Warren Ziegler
Sent: 22 February 2010=20 16:23
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject:= Re:=20 LF: VLF_8.79 kHz

No license is required in the US= below=20 9kHz.

I agree with Mal its very difficult to radi= ate a=20 signal on 137kHz, let
alone 9kHz!
--
73 Warren= =20 K2ORS
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20 =A0 WD2XGJ
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20 =A0 =A0 WD2XSH/23
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20 =A0 =A0 =A0 WE2XEB/2
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 WE2XGR/1



On Mon,=20 Feb 22, 2010 at 11:10 AM, ALAN MELIA <alan.melia@btinternet.com>
wrote:
>=20 Hi as far as the Uk is concerned it is not allowed. You= =20 probably need to
contact Andy G4JNT for details he di= d=20 approach the regulator at one time
maybe around 2001/= 2 when=20 Geri was doing his tests the answer as I=20 remember
was:-
> Frequencies below 10kHz are no= t=20 allocated by International Treaty but we
control all= =20 frequencies between DC and gamma rays, and no we will no= t=20 be
issuing any licences for that region.
>
&= gt; I=20 believe that was the RadioCommunications Agency things= may be=20 different
now with Ofcomm. The best person to know wh= ether=20 an approach would be
worthwhile would be John Gould= G4WKL=20 who nursed the 500k stuff through.
>
> Alan= =20 G3NYK
>
> --- On Mon, 22/2/10,=20 Stefan_Sch=E4fer
<Stefan.Schaefer@iup.uni= -heidelberg.de>=20 wrote:
>
>> From: Stefan_Sch=E4fer <Stefan.Schaefer@iu= p.uni-heidelberg.de>
>>=20 Subject: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz
>> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
>>=20 Date: Monday, 22 February, 2010,=20 11:32
>>
>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>=20 Ok Roger,
>>
>>
>>
>>= ; And=20 do you know if f<9kHz is free for other countries=20 in
>> europe as
>> well? What about th= e=20 UK?
>>
>>
>>
>> If= such a=20 grounded dipole is best, than it is easy to build
>= ;>=20 a big
>> antenna without the problems we have= on LF=20 (getting the
>> wire high above
>> gro= und).=20 So we also could try big/long antennas. Waht do
>&= gt;=20 you mean with
>> amateur levels? Power range is= =20 clear, something arround
>> 500W+-6dB.=20 But
>> the antenna? Sure, if you think about bu= ilding=20 an antenna
>> in the
>> garden, say 2x= 20m,=20 is not very effective but what about
>> 2x500m= in=20 a
>> forrest, perhaps with the loading coils (w= hich=20 will be on a
>> ferrite
>> toroid i th= ink)=20 mounted 300m apart from the center? That
>> cou= ld=20 be
>> interesting and easy to try. No tower, no= earth=20 radials,
>> just 2 wires
>> hung up on= some=20 trees and measured the impedance at the
>> feed= =20 point,
>> that would be a first=20 step.
>>
>> This antenna will still be= bad=20 but what we are doing -on LF
>> it is the
&g= t;>=20 same- is beeing fascinated to reach a good distance=20 and
>> make some
>> contacts at very= low=20 frequencies, although it would be much
>> easie= r=20 on
>> 40/80m...
>>
>> And so,= if=20 one would reach 50km with such a short dipole,
>&g= t;=20 the
>> fascination would be enormous, isn't= it?=20 ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>> Has= =20 anyone, except Horst, tried such experiments as=20 well?
>>
>>
>>
>> Wi= th the=20 ground wave, one could reach the whole europe, i
>= >=20 expect. But
>> that are=20 dreams...
>>
>>
>>
>>= ;=20 Stefan/DK7FC
>>
>>
>>
>= >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>&g= t;=20 Am 22.02.2010 11:03, schrieb Roger=20 Lapthorn:
>>
>> =A0 At this frequency,= =20 widely spaced,=A0grounded
>> electrode pairs=20 are
>> probably the best "antenna".= =A0 There=20 are
>> references to how these work in
>&= gt;=20 the literature (for example NATO AGAARD papers from=20 the
>> 1960s,
>> available on the inte= rnet I=20 believe) and on one of the
>> German ham=20 sites
>> (DK8KW) - see http://www= .qru.de/#vlf=A0.

>>
>>=20 =A0 Don't expect great ranges: up to 10kms is a=20 fair
>> aim with modern
>> signal=20 processing=A0technology and reasonable (amateur
>&= gt;=20 levels) available
>> power. Project Sanguine ac= hieved=20 worldwide coverage to
>> submarines at
>&= gt;=20 76Hz (yes Hertz!) but used enormous power and=20 antennas
>> stretching for
>> 100s of= =20 kms.
>>
>> =A0 73s
>> =A0=20 Roger=20 G3XBM
>>
>>
>>
>>>>
>>=20 =A0 2010/2/22 Stefan Sch=E4fer
>> <schaefer@hst.tu-darmstadt.de= >
>>
>>=20 =A0 Hello=20 Horst,
>>
>>
>>
>>= That=20 sounds really nice. If it would be easy to find=20 some
>> motivated OMs
>> in the near= field=20 (31km) ;-), that would be an interesting
>> fie= ld=20 to
>>=20 test.
>>
>>
>>
>>=20 Yesterday i have thought about possible antenna
>&= gt;=20 configurations for that
>> range and got the id= ea=20 that one could use a forrest as an
>>=20 antenna
>> tower. There, you could hang up 100s= =20 meters of wire, in
>> series and in
>>= =20 parallel. You do not need to have that area beside=20 your
>> house. Nobody
>> will see the= wire=20 and nobody will care about it.
>>
>>= Since=20 summer 2007 i have a horizontal loop antenna=20 mounted
>> in some
>> trees on my hill= with=20 excellent results on all HF bands and
>> also= =20 160m.
>> The loop has 130m and is mounted up to= 12m=20 above ground.
>> Perfect
>> matching= from=20 160m to 10m with my symmetric tuner. I even
>>= =20 tried
>> matching on 2200m without a problem bu= t with=20 bad ODX
>> results, of
>> course. But= if one=20 would try 2x 10*100m on VLF, the ODX
>> would= =20 be
>>=20 interesting...
>>
>>
>>
&g= t;>=20 JO30OT is abt 160km from JN49IS and thus a little far=20 i
>> think=20 ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>> What= is=20 your RX antenna and have you already catched some
>= ;>=20 commercial
>> VLF stations in that range? Are= there=20 some?
>>
>>
>>
>> 73= ,=20 Stefan
>>
>>
>>
>>= PS: One=20 can be sure that there will never be SSB operation
&g= t;>=20 ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>>=20 ________________________________
>>
>>=
>>
>>=20 Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
>>=20 im Auftrag von Horst=20 St=F6cker
>>
>>
>> Gesendet:= Mo=20 22.02.2010 09:29
>>
>> =A0 =A0 An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.or= g
>>
>>
>>=20 Betreff: RE: LF: AW: Beaconing on 8.79 kHz in=20 QRSS
>>
>>
>>
>>
= >>
>>
>>
>>
>>=20 Hallo Stefan,
>>
>>
>>
>= ;>=20 there was a notice in Funkamateur 12/05, S. 1287, that= =20 in
>> DL the range
>> <9kHz is=20 free.
>>
>>
>>
>> I= could=20 not believe that so I asked the BNetzA and after a
&g= t;>=20 while I got
>> a letter which confirmed=20 that.
>>
>>
>>
>> So= there=20 nothing you've got to do for getting a
>>= licence.=20 You do not
>> need=20 one.
>>
>>
>>
>> The= re is=20 no limitation of technical parameters like
>>= =20 bandwith or=20 power.
>>
>>
>>
>>= Hard to=20 believe in german, but obviously=20 true.
>>
>>
>>
>> My= QTH=20 is Siegburg=20 JO30OT
>>
>>
>>
>>= =20 Horst
>>
>>=20 ________________________________________________________= ___
>>
>>=20 NEU: Mit WEB= .DE DSL =FCber 1000,- =BF=20 sparen!
>>
>> =A0 =A0 http://produk= te.web.de/go/02/
>>
>>
>>
>>
&g= t;>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
&g= t;>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>= >=20 --
>>
>>
>>
>> =A0= http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/
>>
>>=20 =A0 http://www.g3xbm.co.uk
>>
>>=20 =A0 http://www.youtube.com/user/G3XBM
>= >
>>=20 G3XBM =A0 =A0GQRP 1678 =A0 =A0=20 =A0ISWL
>>=20 G11088
>>
>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>=20 --
>> ----------------------------
>>= =20 Dipl.-Ing. Stefan Sch=E4fer
>> Institut f=FCr= =20 Umweltphysik der Universit=E4t
>>=20 Heidelberg
>> Im Neuenheimer Feld 229
>&g= t;=20 D-69120 Heidelberg, Germany
>>
>> schaefer@iup.uni-heidelbe= rg.de
>>=20 Phone: (+49) (0)6221 546387
>> Fax: (+49) (0)62= 21=20 546405
>>
>>=20 www.iup.uni-heidelberg.de
>>
>>
>>>
>




=A0


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--
73 Warren K2ORS
= =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0WD2XGJ
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= WD2XSH/23
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0WE2XEB/2
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0WE2XGR/1


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