Return-Path: Received: from mtain-db03.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-db03.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.64.87]) by air-mc08.mail.aol.com (v127_r1.1) with ESMTP id MAILINMC084-a98e4b82af9b356; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:23:55 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-db03.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 645B4380000FC; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:23:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Njb3W-000296-EE for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:22:46 +0000 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Njb3V-00028x-SW for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:22:45 +0000 Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com ([74.125.92.145]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Njb3R-0002zc-Ra for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:22:45 +0000 Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 5so120669qwf.16 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 08:22:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=G25gInMjri8jjM0nsvJf7p1VPohb6iIHuMR2ZhfwFFY=; b=eBt3pI9bID++jZGHSELgg5K358QpOhnwIy+nZHSQIBDW4IIHnDdNKBRnBCZgyWMfTy KUyQPhGAFEZVxO7FGTlLvx3hB/oC27t3M3lnAKKsqPl4XnDgUVo0DrX0GtT8o9kZn3eJ NUyxo2gKEOlC6Csg1lwN9wzPvKJER/W4B5umc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=IdA1vbCzm5KLL0/SKYSALUSyWb2VkuMxnPrG4txxYxipsVpWh3HHP9ZCTlE7fyeZiO Vx54OCVb9L3pOcGhLhZrahtbpoc77pt9Hp+X4F38fhJfkXhkV8ys5536As2uK6wMwshN 4oNi5u491nJZvQRgvKOMiE4IE+7sg357DdZA8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.89.194 with SMTP id f2mr548086qam.350.1266855751806; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 08:22:31 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <588613.30106.qm@web86502.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <4B826B4F.9060202@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <588613.30106.qm@web86502.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:22:31 -0500 Message-ID: <57a24ca71002220822t3340ebc3p71f74b3cd9bcddf2@mail.gmail.com> From: Warren Ziegler To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,none Subject: Re: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-d264.1 ; domain : gmail.com DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d40574b82af966fa0 X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) No license is required in the US below 9kHz. I agree with Mal its very difficult to radiate a signal on 137kHz, let alone 9kHz! --=20 73 Warren K2ORS WD2XGJ WD2XSH/23 WE2XEB/2 WE2XGR/1 On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 11:10 AM, ALAN MELIA = wrote: > Hi as far as the Uk is concerned it is not allowed. You probably need to= contact Andy G4JNT for details he did approach the regulator at one time= maybe around 2001/2 when Geri was doing his tests the answer as I remembe= r was:- > Frequencies below 10kHz are not allocated by International Treaty but we= control all frequencies between DC and gamma rays, and no we will not be= issuing any licences for that region. > > I believe that was the RadioCommunications Agency things may be differen= t now with Ofcomm. The best person to know whether an approach would be wo= rthwhile would be John Gould G4WKL who nursed the 500k stuff through. > > Alan G3NYK > > --- On Mon, 22/2/10, Stefan_Sch=E4fer wrote: > >> From: Stefan_Sch=E4fer >> Subject: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz >> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >> Date: Monday, 22 February, 2010, 11:32 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Ok Roger, >> >> >> >> And do you know if f<9kHz is free for other countries in >> europe as >> well? What about the UK? >> >> >> >> If such a grounded dipole is best, than it is easy to build >> a big >> antenna without the problems we have on LF (getting the >> wire high above >> ground). So we also could try big/long antennas. Waht do >> you mean with >> amateur levels? Power range is clear, something arround >> 500W+-6dB. But >> the antenna? Sure, if you think about building an antenna >> in the >> garden, say 2x20m, is not very effective but what about >> 2x500m in a >> forrest, perhaps with the loading coils (which will be on a >> ferrite >> toroid i think) mounted 300m apart from the center? That >> could be >> interesting and easy to try. No tower, no earth radials, >> just 2 wires >> hung up on some trees and measured the impedance at the >> feed point, >> that would be a first step. >> >> This antenna will still be bad but what we are doing -on LF >> it is the >> same- is beeing fascinated to reach a good distance and >> make some >> contacts at very low frequencies, although it would be much >> easier on >> 40/80m... >> >> And so, if one would reach 50km with such a short dipole, >> the >> fascination would be enormous, isn't it? ;-) >> >> >> >> Has anyone, except Horst, tried such experiments as well? >> >> >> >> With the ground wave, one could reach the whole europe, i >> expect. But >> that are dreams... >> >> >> >> Stefan/DK7FC >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Am 22.02.2010 11:03, schrieb Roger Lapthorn: >> >> =A0 At this frequency, widely spaced,=A0grounded >> electrode pairs are >> probably the best "antenna".=A0 There are >> references to how these work in >> the literature (for example NATO AGAARD papers from the >> 1960s, >> available on the internet I believe) and on one of the >> German ham sites >> (DK8KW) - see http://www.qru.de/#vlf=A0. >> >> =A0 Don't expect great ranges: up to 10kms is a fair >> aim with modern >> signal processing=A0technology and reasonable (amateur >> levels) available >> power. Project Sanguine achieved worldwide coverage to >> submarines at >> 76Hz (yes Hertz!) but used enormous power and antennas >> stretching for >> 100s of kms. >> >> =A0 73s >> =A0 Roger G3XBM >> >> >> >> >> >> =A0 2010/2/22 Stefan Sch=E4fer >> >> >> =A0 Hello Horst, >> >> >> >> That sounds really nice. If it would be easy to find some >> motivated OMs >> in the near field (31km) ;-), that would be an interesting >> field to >> test. >> >> >> >> Yesterday i have thought about possible antenna >> configurations for that >> range and got the idea that one could use a forrest as an >> antenna >> tower. There, you could hang up 100s meters of wire, in >> series and in >> parallel. You do not need to have that area beside your >> house. Nobody >> will see the wire and nobody will care about it. >> >> Since summer 2007 i have a horizontal loop antenna mounted >> in some >> trees on my hill with excellent results on all HF bands and >> also 160m. >> The loop has 130m and is mounted up to 12m above ground. >> Perfect >> matching from 160m to 10m with my symmetric tuner. I even >> tried >> matching on 2200m without a problem but with bad ODX >> results, of >> course. But if one would try 2x 10*100m on VLF, the ODX >> would be >> interesting... >> >> >> >> JO30OT is abt 160km from JN49IS and thus a little far i >> think ;-) >> >> >> >> What is your RX antenna and have you already catched some >> commercial >> VLF stations in that range? Are there some? >> >> >> >> 73, Stefan >> >> >> >> PS: One can be sure that there will never be SSB operation >> ;-) >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> >> >> Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >> im Auftrag von Horst St=F6cker >> >> >> Gesendet: Mo 22.02.2010 09:29 >> >> =A0 =A0 An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >> >> >> Betreff: RE: LF: AW: Beaconing on 8.79 kHz in QRSS >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Hallo Stefan, >> >> >> >> there was a notice in Funkamateur 12/05, S. 1287, that in >> DL the range >> <9kHz is free. >> >> >> >> I could not believe that so I asked the BNetzA and after a >> while I got >> a letter which confirmed that. >> >> >> >> So there nothing you've got to do for getting a >> licence. You do not >> need one. >> >> >> >> There is no limitation of technical parameters like >> bandwith or power. >> >> >> >> Hard to believe in german, but obviously true. >> >> >> >> My QTH is Siegburg JO30OT >> >> >> >> Horst >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> >> NEU: Mit WEB.DE DSL =FCber 1000,- =BF sparen! >> >> =A0 =A0 http://produkte.web.de/go/02/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> =A0 http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ >> >> =A0 http://www.g3xbm.co.uk >> >> =A0 http://www.youtube.com/user/G3XBM >> >> G3XBM =A0 =A0GQRP 1678 =A0 =A0 =A0ISWL >> G11088 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> ---------------------------- >> Dipl.-Ing. Stefan Sch=E4fer >> Institut f=FCr Umweltphysik der Universit=E4t >> Heidelberg >> Im Neuenheimer Feld 229 >> D-69120 Heidelberg, Germany >> >> schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de >> Phone: (+49) (0)6221 546387 >> Fax: (+49) (0)6221 546405 >> >> www.iup.uni-heidelberg.de >> >> >> > >