Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.8 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: EATSERVER: mailn 1166; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mailn.lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id uB59Rquu007811 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2016 10:27:53 +0100 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1cDpQn-0006cu-Sf for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 05 Dec 2016 09:19:29 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1cDpQf-0006cl-SB for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 05 Dec 2016 09:19:21 +0000 Received: from gmy2-mh808.smtproutes.com ([94.186.192.137]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1cDpQb-0006JT-8D for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 05 Dec 2016 09:19:20 +0000 X-Katharion-ID: 1480929536.27229.gmy2-mh808 Received: from servigilant.vigilant.es ([87.216.178.132]) by gmy2-mh808.smtproutes.com [(94.186.192.137)] with ESMTP via TCP (TLSv1/TLS_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA); 05 Dec 2016 09:18:56 +0000 Received: from servigilant.vigilant.local ([fe80::c40d:8140:d722:5448]) by servigilant.vigilant.local ([fe80::c40d:8140:d722:5448%16]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Mon, 5 Dec 2016 10:18:51 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?VIGILANT_Luis_Fern=E1ndez?= To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" Thread-Topic: LF: Daytime MF prpagation beyond the groundwave Thread-Index: AQHSTh4kX2wgBMwONkOAeintuGun1qD3lhmAgAALUYCAADNTgIAARHUAgAA1IYCAAMQv4A== Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 09:18:50 +0000 Message-ID: <579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB5D87FB7E@servigilant.vigilant.local> In-Reply-To: <001201d24e7d$e207db90$a61792b0$@comcast.net> Accept-Language: es-ES, en-US Content-Language: es-ES X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.168.0.2] MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scan-Signature: 01401eaa8b25b2659337bf7639cb5b27 Subject: RE: LF: Daytime MF prpagation beyond the groundwave Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB5D87FB7Eservigilantvigi_" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 9715 --_000_579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB5D87FB7Eservigilantvigi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Folks Just to recall the article written by Alan Melia, G3NYK, which describes th= e LF/MF propagation mechanisms and also this daylight skywave propagation http://www.472khz.org/pages/technical-topics/propagation.php As Stefan said, I usually keep Tx WSPR during daylight and get spots during= daylight in winter. Usually no spots for an hour at 12 UTC but last november 25th we had a moderate geomagnetic storm hitting just fur= ing daylight in Europe. It was outstanding to get so many decodes during daylight for the whole day. The most impressive was from G8H= UH at 1430Km who spotted a -1dB at 9:32 UTC Always worth to be in Tx ;-) Unfortunately we have bad weather conditions here this days. Wires are in "= park" mode 73 de Luis EA5DOM ________________________________ De: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blackshe= ep.org] En nombre de hvanesce@comcast.net Enviado el: domingo, 04 de diciembre de 2016 23:28 Para: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Asunto: RE: LF: Daytime MF prpagation beyond the groundwave Stefan, Roleof and Markus, Thank you for all of the winter propagation information, it is most interes= ting and very much appreciated. Roleof, could you mention the station that you heard from Churchill? We vis= ited Churchill a few years ago and would really enjoy hearing a station fro= m there. 73, Jim AA5BW From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacks= heep.org] On Behalf Of Markus Vester Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 2:18 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Daytime MF prpagation beyond the groundwave Hi Jim, I have to admit that I have no proof that the "winter anomaly" has any effe= ct on the lower ionosphere. As Roelof and others have indicated, increased = daytime MF / LF signal strength may rather be due to less (and not more) bu= ildup of absorbing D-layer ionisation during shorter daylight hours. In add= ition, QRN activity tends to be lower at least in mid latitudes. Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) -----Urspr=FCngliche Mitteilung----- Von: hvanesce > An: rsgb_lf_group > Verschickt: So, 4 Dez 2016 4:15 pm Betreff: RE: LF: Daytime MF prpagation beyond the groundwave Markus and Stefan, Thank you for the winter anomaly reference and example. Stefan originally referred to 630m and Markus' comments did not specificall= y ascribe the anomaly itself (just groundwave distance) to VLF but I am cur= ious: is the anomaly evident at VLF? Reliable at VLF? My question relates t= o the wiki description of an F2 layer effect, and I wondered if F2 (and hen= ce the anomaly) is perhaps significant in nighttime VLF propagation, or if = perhaps there is also some process similar to the F2 winter anomaly in the = D layer which would affect VLF. Do either of you have thoughts on the winte= r anomaly at VLF frequencies? 73, Jim AA5BW From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Markus Vester Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 7:09 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Daytime MF prpagation beyond the groundwave Hi Andy, Stefan, daytime propagation on VLF/LF beyond a few100 km (and likely also on MF) is= dominated by ionospheric reflections, rather than groundwave. Despite lowe= r solar elevation on winter days, the ionisation is actually stronger than = in summer. This effect is known as the "winter anomaly": https://en.wikiped= ia.org/wiki/Ionosphere . Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) -----Urspr=FCngliche Mitteilung----- Von: F6CNI - Andy - JN19QB > An: rsgb_lf_group > Verschickt: So, 4 Dez 2016 12:30 pm Betreff: Re: LF: Daytime MF prpagation beyond the groundwave Hello Stefan. Sorry but I do not understand. Can you explain to us scientifically why you said that there is a difference enter winter and summer for day time gr= oundwave mode of propagation ? Also, an other question : can you tell us honestly which is your exact EIRP= transmitting power, because on day time groundwave there is not usual to h= ave a WSPR2 report on the 630 meters band of -17 dB S/N over 1500 km (Remem= ber that he legal maximum power in DK is 1 Watt EIRP, and nobody can ignore= the law ). 73 Andy. From: DK7FC Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 11:52 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Daytime MF prpagation beyond the groundwave Hi MF, I just sent a single WSPR block and got the following results from distance= s above 300km. This is typical for the winter season. 73, Stefan 27 spots: Timestamp Call MHz SNR Drift Grid Pwr Reporter RGrid km az 2016-12-04 10:46 DK7FC 0.475682 -20 0 JN49ik 1 LA2XPA JP33wi 1548 358 2016-12-04 10:46 DK7FC 0.475685 -17 0 JN49ik 1 OH1TSM KP11db 1546 28 2016-12-04 10:46 DK7FC 0.475682 -6 0 JN49ik 1 LA8AV JO59cs 1153 4 2016-12-04 10:46 DK7FC 0.475682 -12 0 JN49ik 1 LA6LU JO59eq 1145 5 2016-12-04 10:46 DK7FC 0.475682 +2 0 JN49ik 1 LA3EQ JO28xj 1012 351 2016-12-04 10:46 DK7FC 0.475682 -19 0 JN49ik 1 G3XKR IO70ux 940 285 2016-12-04 10:46 DK7FC 0.475682 -19 0 JN49ik 1 SP5XSB KO02ld 911 66 2016-12-04 10:46 DK7FC 0.475683 -6 0 JN49ik 1 G8HUH IO81mg 851 288 2016-12-04 10:46 DK7FC 0.475674 -19 0 JN49ik 1 M0FMT IO91ux 693 297 2016-12-04 10:46 DK7FC 0.475622 -12 0 JN49ik 1 G0VQH JO02fe 655 301 2016-12-04 10:46 DK7FC 0.475682 -23 0 JN49ik 1 IW4DXW JN64bw 563 151 2016-12-04 10:46 DK7FC 0.475684 +1 0 JN49ik 1 PA0RDT JO11tm 428 305 2016-12-04 10:46 DK7FC 0.475686 -8 0 JN49ik 1 PA7EY JO22jj 428 322 2016-12-04 10:46 DK7FC 0.475682 -4 0 JN49ik 1 PE1RKT JO22fb 418 316 2016-12-04 10:46 DK7FC 0.475684 -15 0 JN49ik 1 PA3ANG JO32am 390 332 2016-12-04 10:46 DK7FC 0.475686 -12 0 JN49ik 1 DL-SWL JO52hp 381 20 2016-12-04 10:46 DK7FC 0.475681 +12 0 JN49ik 1 DH5RAE JN68qv 345 98 2016-12-04 10:46 DK7FC 0.475682 +1 0 JN49ik 1 PI4THT JO32kf 336 338 2016-12-04 10:46 DK7FC 0.475682 -12 0 JN49ik 1 PA0MLC JO31aw 335 327 2016-12-04 10:46 DK7FC 0.475682 +7 0 JN49ik 1 DJ0ABR JN68nt 329 101 --_000_579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB5D87FB7Eservigilantvigi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Folks
 
Just to recall the article writte= n by Alan Melia, G3NYK, which describes the LF/MF propagation mechanisms an= d also this daylight skywave propagation
 
As Stefan said, I usually keep Tx= WSPR during daylight and get spots during daylight in winter. Usually no s= pots for an hour at 12 UTC
but last november 25th we had a m= oderate geomagnetic storm hitting just furing daylight in Europe. It was ou= tstanding to get so many
decodes during daylight for the w= hole day. The most impressive was from G8HUH at 1430Km who spotted a -1dB a= t 9:32 UTC
 
Always worth to be in Tx ;-)
Unfortunately we have bad weather= conditions here this days. Wires are in "park" mode
 
73 de Luis
EA5DOM
De: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.= org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] En nombre de hvanesce@comcast.net
Enviado el: domingo, 04 de diciembre de 2016 23:28
Para: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Asunto: RE: LF: Daytime MF prpagation beyond the groundwave

Stefan, Roleof and Markus,

 

Thank you for all of the winter propagation infor= mation, it is most interesting and very much appreciated.

 

Roleof, could you mention the station that you he= ard from Churchill? We visited Churchill a few years ago and would really e= njoy hearing a station from there.

 

73,

 

Jim AA5BW

 

 

From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:own= er-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Markus Vester
Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 2:18 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: LF: Daytime MF prpagation beyond the groundwave

 

Hi Jim,

I have to admit that I have no proof that the "winter anomaly" ha= s any effect on the lower ionosphere. As Roelof and others have indicated,&= nbsp;increased daytime MF / LF signal strength may rather be due to le= ss (and not more) buildup of absorbing D-layer ionisation during shorter daylight hours. In addition, QRN activity te= nds to be lower at least in mid latitudes.

Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)  
  

-----Urspr=FCngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: hvanesce <hvanesce@comcast.= net>
An: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_= lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Verschickt: So, 4 Dez 2016 4:15 pm
Betreff: RE: LF: Daytime MF prpagation beyond the groundwave

Markus and Stefan,

 

Thank you for the winter anomaly r= eference and  example.<= /span>

 

Stefan originally referred to 630m= and Markus’ comments did not specifically ascribe the anomaly itself= (just groundwave distance) to VLF but I am curious: is the anomaly evident at VLF? Reliable at VLF? My question relat= es to the wiki description of an F2 layer effect, and I wondered if F2 (and= hence the anomaly) is perhaps significant in nighttime VLF propagation, or= if perhaps there is also some process similar to the F2 winter anomaly in the D layer which would affect VLF. Do= either of you have thoughts on the winter anomaly at VLF frequencies?

 

73,

 

Jim AA5BW

 

 

From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_= lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Markus Vester
Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 7:09 AM
To: rsgb_lf_group@bl= acksheep.org
Subject: Re: LF: Daytime MF prpagation beyond the groundwave<= span style=3D"COLOR: black">

 

Hi Andy,= Stefan,

daytime propagation on VLF/LF beyond a few100 km (and likely also on M= F) is dominated by ionospheric reflections, rather than groundwave. De= spite lower solar elevation on winter days, the ionisation is actually stro= nger than in summer. This effect is known as the "winter anomaly": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionosphere .  

Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)

-----Urspr=FCngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: F6CNI - Andy - JN19QB <f6cni@orange.fr>
An: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Verschickt: So, 4 Dez 2016 12:30 pm
Betreff: Re: LF: Daytime MF prpagation beyond the groundwave

Hello Stefan. Sorry but I do not understand.

 =

Can you explain to us scientifically why

you said that there is a difference enter winter and = summer for day time groundwave mode of propagation ?

 =

Also, an other question : can you tell us honestly wh= ich is your exact EIRP transmitting power, because on day time groundwave t= here is not usual to have a WSPR2 report on the 630 meters band of –17 dB S/N over 1500 km (Remember that he = legal maximum power in DK is 1 Watt EIRP, and nobody can ignore the law ).<= /span>

 =

73 Andy.

 =

 =

F= rom: DK7FC

S= ent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 11:52 AM

S= ubject: LF: Daytime MF prpagation beyond the groundwave<= /o:p>

 =

Hi MF,

I just sent a single WSPR block and got the following results from distance= s above 300km.
  73, Stefan

27 spots:=

Timestamp

Call

MHz

SNR

Drift

Grid

Pwr

Reporter

RGrid

km

az

= 2016-12-04 10:46

DK7FC

= 0.475682

= -20

= 0

JN49ik <= o:p>

= 1

LA2XPA <= o:p>

JP33wi <= o:p>

= 1548

= 358

= 2016-12-04 10:46

DK7FC

= 0.475685

= -17

= 0

JN49ik <= o:p>

= 1

OH1TSM <= o:p>

KP11db <= o:p>

= 1546

= 28

= 2016-12-04 10:46

DK7FC

= 0.475682

= -6

= 0

JN49ik <= o:p>

= 1

LA8AV

JO59cs <= o:p>

= 1153

= 4

= 2016-12-04 10:46

DK7FC

= 0.475682

= -12

= 0

JN49ik <= o:p>

= 1

LA6LU

JO59eq <= o:p>

= 1145

= 5

= 2016-12-04 10:46

DK7FC

= 0.475682

= +2

= 0

JN49ik <= o:p>

= 1

LA3EQ

JO28xj <= o:p>

= 1012

= 351

= 2016-12-04 10:46

DK7FC

= 0.475682

= -19

= 0

JN49ik <= o:p>

= 1

G3XKR

IO70ux <= o:p>

= 940

= 285

= 2016-12-04 10:46

DK7FC

= 0.475682

= -19

= 0

JN49ik <= o:p>

= 1

SP5XSB <= o:p>

KO02ld <= o:p>

= 911

= 66

= 2016-12-04 10:46

DK7FC

= 0.475683

= -6

= 0

JN49ik <= o:p>

= 1

G8HUH

IO81mg <= o:p>

= 851

= 288

= 2016-12-04 10:46

DK7FC

= 0.475674

= -19

= 0

JN49ik <= o:p>

= 1

M0FMT

IO91ux <= o:p>

= 693

= 297

= 2016-12-04 10:46

DK7FC

= 0.475622

= -12

= 0

JN49ik <= o:p>

= 1

G0VQH

JO02fe <= o:p>

= 655

= 301

= 2016-12-04 10:46

DK7FC

= 0.475682

= -23

= 0

JN49ik <= o:p>

= 1

IW4DXW <= o:p>

JN64bw <= o:p>

= 563

= 151

= 2016-12-04 10:46

DK7FC

= 0.475684

= +1

= 0

JN49ik <= o:p>

= 1

PA0RDT <= o:p>

JO11tm <= o:p>

= 428

= 305

= 2016-12-04 10:46

DK7FC

= 0.475686

= -8

= 0

JN49ik <= o:p>

= 1

PA7EY

JO22jj <= o:p>

= 428

= 322

= 2016-12-04 10:46

DK7FC

= 0.475682

= -4

= 0

JN49ik <= o:p>

= 1

PE1RKT <= o:p>

JO22fb <= o:p>

= 418

= 316

= 2016-12-04 10:46

DK7FC

= 0.475684

= -15

= 0

JN49ik <= o:p>

= 1

PA3ANG <= o:p>

JO32am <= o:p>

= 390

= 332

= 2016-12-04 10:46

DK7FC

= 0.475686

= -12

= 0

JN49ik <= o:p>

= 1

DL-SWL <= o:p>

JO52hp <= o:p>

= 381

= 20

= 2016-12-04 10:46

DK7FC

= 0.475681

= +12

= 0

JN49ik <= o:p>

= 1

DH5RAE <= o:p>

JN68qv <= o:p>

= 345

= 98

= 2016-12-04 10:46

DK7FC

= 0.475682

= +1

= 0

JN49ik <= o:p>

= 1

PI4THT <= o:p>

JO32kf <= o:p>

= 336

= 338

= 2016-12-04 10:46

DK7FC

= 0.475682

= -12

= 0

JN49ik <= o:p>

= 1

PA0MLC <= o:p>

JO31aw <= o:p>

= 335

= 327

= 2016-12-04 10:46

DK7FC

= 0.475682

= +7

= 0

JN49ik <= o:p>

= 1

DJ0ABR <= o:p>

JN68nt <= o:p>

= 329

= 101

 

--_000_579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB5D87FB7Eservigilantvigi_--