Return-Path: X-Spam-DCC: paranoid 1233; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL, FORGED_RCVD_HELO,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB autolearn=no version=3.1.3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by paranoid.lipkowski.org (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id t527Ct1f008627 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2015 09:12:55 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1YzgKE-0000jg-0a for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 02 Jun 2015 08:09:26 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1YzgKD-0000jX-9F for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 02 Jun 2015 08:09:25 +0100 Received: from s16315160.onlinehome-server.info ([87.106.80.234] helo=mail.vigilant.es) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1YzgKA-0000dV-3l for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 02 Jun 2015 08:09:24 +0100 Received: from servigilant.vigilant.local ([87.216.178.132]) by vigilant.es with MailEnable ESMTP; Tue, 2 Jun 2015 09:08:46 +0200 Received: from servigilant.vigilant.local ([fe80::3cdf:95f8:c1c9:3931]) by servigilant.vigilant.local ([fe80::3cdf:95f8:c1c9:3931%17]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Tue, 2 Jun 2015 09:09:05 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?VIGILANT_Luis_Fern=E1ndez?= To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" Thread-Topic: LF: Dual-speed WSPR Thread-Index: AQHQmzDc2VSMFNpbYk2+HGe/lvPGD52VCkUAgAAr/NyAAFOeAIABlZwAgAGtKl0= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 07:09:04 +0000 Message-ID: <579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB1B10F930@servigilant.vigilant.local> References: <91F37C608C8244FA9EE41F66FD8D79E6@White> <556A48E2.5040802@gmail.com> <6193AB3C29844ED2A88BFD49480C5055@White> <556AB3EC.5050607@freenet.de>,<556C082C.9010208@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <556C082C.9010208@gmail.com> Accept-Language: es-ES, en-US Content-Language: es-ES X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [95.17.50.38] MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scan-Signature: 40a333c37c85e1c2312d39fc42d96435 Subject: Re: LF: Dual-speed WSPR Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB1B10F930servigilantvigi_" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 10.1.3.10 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3405 --_000_579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB1B10F930servigilantvigi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi MF One more test here to check if there is any difference in SNR when using WS= PR-2 and WSPR-15 for a short path I set my U3 at QRPP. Low enought to get about -9dB at WSPR-2 at my remote m= onitor 7Km away Reports went down from -9 to -13 and then I changed to WSPR-15 at 22:00 As you can see, SNR keeps very close at -13/-12 increasing at sunrise time,= which is the usual behaviour for this short path (better signals on daylight) ending again at = -9dB WSPR-15 So, no difference in SNR observed here. Your mileage may vary ;-) 2015-06-01 19:36 EA5DOM 0.475792 -9 0 IM98wn 0.01 EA5DOM-1 IM98xn = 7 90 2015-06-01 19:48 EA5DOM 0.475781 -10 0 IM98wn 0.01 EA5DOM-1 = IM98xn 7 90 2015-06-01 20:00 EA5DOM 0.475781 -10 0 IM98wn 0.01 EA= 5DOM-1 IM98xn 7 90 2015-06-01 20:12 EA5DOM 0.475781 -10 0 IM98wn = 0.01 EA5DOM-1 IM98xn 7 90 2015-06-01 20:24 EA5DOM 0.475781 -10 0 = IM98wn 0.01 EA5DOM-1 IM98xn 7 90 2015-06-01 20:36 EA5DOM 0.475781 = -10 0 IM98wn 0.01 EA5DOM-1 IM98xn 7 90 2015-06-01 20:48 EA5DOM 0.= 475781 -12 0 IM98wn 0.01 EA5DOM-1 IM98xn 7 90 2015-06-01 21:00 EA= 5DOM 0.475781 -11 0 IM98wn 0.01 EA5DOM-1 IM98xn 7 90 2015-06-01 2= 1:12 EA5DOM 0.475781 -11 0 IM98wn 0.01 EA5DOM-1 IM98xn 7 90 2015= -06-01 21:24 EA5DOM 0.475781 -11 0 IM98wn 0.01 EA5DOM-1 IM98xn 7 = 90 2015-06-01 21:36 EA5DOM 0.475781 -12 0 IM98wn 0.01 EA5DOM-1 IM9= 8xn 7 90 2015-06-01 21:48 EA5DOM 0.475781 -13 0 IM98wn 0.01 EA5DO= M-1 IM98xn 7 90 2015-06-01 22:00 EA5DOM 0.475807 -12 1 IM98wn 0.0= 01 EA5DOM-4 IM98xn 7 90 2015-06-01 22:30 EA5DOM 0.475806 -13 1 IM= 98wn 0.001 EA5DOM-4 IM98xn 7 90 2015-06-01 23:00 EA5DOM 0.475806 -= 12 1 IM98wn 0.001 EA5DOM-4 IM98xn 7 90 2015-06-01 23:30 EA5DOM 0.= 475806 -13 1 IM98wn 0.001 EA5DOM-4 IM98xn 7 90 2015-06-02 00:00 E= A5DOM 0.475806 -13 1 IM98wn 0.001 EA5DOM-4 IM98xn 7 90 2015-06-02= 00:30 EA5DOM 0.475806 -13 1 IM98wn 0.001 EA5DOM-4 IM98xn 7 90 2= 015-06-02 01:00 EA5DOM 0.475806 -12 1 IM98wn 0.001 EA5DOM-4 IM98xn = 7 90 2015-06-02 01:30 EA5DOM 0.475806 -12 1 IM98wn 0.001 EA5DOM-4= IM98xn 7 90 2015-06-02 02:00 EA5DOM 0.475806 -12 1 IM98wn 0.001 = EA5DOM-4 IM98xn 7 90 2015-06-02 02:30 EA5DOM 0.475806 -12 1 IM98w= n 0.001 EA5DOM-4 IM98xn 7 90 2015-06-02 03:00 EA5DOM 0.475806 -12 = 1 IM98wn 0.001 EA5DOM-4 IM98xn 7 90 2015-06-02 03:30 EA5DOM 0.475= 806 -12 1 IM98wn 0.001 EA5DOM-4 IM98xn 7 90 2015-06-02 04:00 EA5D= OM 0.475806 -13 1 IM98wn 0.001 EA5DOM-4 IM98xn 7 90 2015-06-02 04= :30 EA5DOM 0.475806 -12 1 IM98wn 0.001 EA5DOM-4 IM98xn 7 90 2015= -06-02 05:00 EA5DOM 0.475806 -12 1 IM98wn 0.001 EA5DOM-4 IM98xn 7 = 90 2015-06-02 05:30 EA5DOM 0.475806 -11 1 IM98wn 0.001 EA5DOM-4 I= M98xn 7 90 2015-06-02 06:00 EA5DOM 0.475806 -10 1 IM98wn 0.001 EA= 5DOM-4 IM98xn 7 90 2015-06-02 06:30 EA5DOM 0.475806 -9 1 IM98wn 0= .001 EA5DOM-4 IM98xn 7 90 73 de Luis EA5DOM ________________________________ De: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]= en nombre de IZ7SLZ [iz7slz.domenico@gmail.com] Enviado: lunes, 1 de junio de 2015 9:22 Para: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org CC: wolf_dl4yhf Asunto: Re: LF: Dual-speed WSPR Good day all, i did a similar test on may 27 night by transmitting, in close time interv= al, some WSPR-2 and WSPR-15 sequences. For Markus statistics, these are r= esults: Timestamp Call MHz SNR Drift G= rid Pwr Reporter RGrid km az wspr-2 (5 spots) 2015-05-27 22:16 IZ7SLZ 0.475777 -16 0 JN80nu = 100 IK1WVQ JN44cb 813 299 2015-05-27 22:16 IZ7SLZ 0.475778 -28 0 JN80nu = 100 EA5DOM-1 IM98xn 1488 266 2015-05-27 22:16 IZ7SLZ 0.475778 -27 0 JN80nu = 100 DF2JP JO31hh 1414 329 2015-05-27 22:16 IZ7SLZ 0.475777 -25 1 JN80nu = 100 PA3ABK/2 JO21it 1543 326 2015-05-27 22:16 IZ7SLZ 0.475777 -24 0 JN80nu = 100 F6GEX IN97na 1591 302 wspr-15 (11 spots) 2015-05-27 22:00 IZ7SLZ 0.475763 -12 0 JN80nu = 100 PA3ABK/15 JO21it 1543 326 2015-05-27 22:00 IZ7SLZ 0.475821 -36 0 JN80nu = 100 G3WCB IO80di 1924 310 2015-05-27 22:00 IZ7SLZ 0.475821 -27 0 JN80nu = 100 DI2AX JO44ad 1625 338 2015-05-27 22:00 IZ7SLZ 0.475821 -27 0 JN80nu = 100 DF2JP JO31hh 1414 329 2015-05-27 22:00 IZ7SLZ 0.475822 -19 0 JN80nu = 100 DG3LV JO53gv 1531 344 2015-05-27 22:00 IZ7SLZ 0.475820 -36 0 JN80nu = 100 SM2DJK KP03au 2565 3 2015-05-27 22:00 IZ7SLZ 0.475823 -20 0 JN80nu = 100 DF8UO JN48ex 1135 326 2015-05-27 22:00 IZ7SLZ 0.475822 -26 0 JN80nu = 100 EA5DOM-4 IM98xn 1488 266 2015-05-27 22:00 IZ7SLZ 0.475821 -35 0 JN80nu = 100 EA4NZ IN80dm 1753 276 2015-05-27 22:00 IZ7SLZ 0.475821 -27 0 JN80nu = 100 DD7PC JN49ax 1236 328 2015-05-27 22:00 IZ7SLZ 0.475763 -15 0 JN80nu = 100 IK1WVQ JN44cb 813 299 wspr-2 (2 spots) 2015-05-27 21:56 IZ7SLZ 0.475778 -28 0 JN80nu = 100 EA5DOM-1 IM98xn 1488 266 2015-05-27 21:56 IZ7SLZ 0.475778 -24 0 JN80nu = 100 DF2JP JO31hh 1414 329 wspr-2 (5 spots) 2015-05-27 21:46 IZ7SLZ 0.475778 -24 0 JN80nu = 100 F5WK JN18hp 1432 312 2015-05-27 21:46 IZ7SLZ 0.475778 -19 0 JN80nu = 100 G6AVK JO01ho 1736 319 2015-05-27 21:46 IZ7SLZ 0.475778 -20 0 JN80nu = 100 PA0A JO33de 1595 333 2015-05-27 21:46 IZ7SLZ 0.475777 -23 0 JN80nu = 100 G8LCO IO91vu 1799 319 2015-05-27 21:46 IZ7SLZ 0.475778 -27 0 JN80nu = 100 PI4THT JO32kf 1485 332 wspr-15 (12 spots) 2015-05-27 21:30 IZ7SLZ 0.475821 -34 0 JN80nu = 100 G3WCB IO80di 1924 310 2015-05-27 21:30 IZ7SLZ 0.475822 -26 0 JN80nu = 100 DF2JP JO31hh 1414 329 2015-05-27 21:30 IZ7SLZ 0.475821 -34 0 JN80nu = 100 DD7PC JN49ax 1236 328 2015-05-27 21:30 IZ7SLZ 0.475820 -36 0 JN80nu = 100 SM2DJK KP03au 2565 3 2015-05-27 21:30 IZ7SLZ 0.475818 -38 0 JN80nu = 100 DK7FC/P JN49ik 1159 328 2015-05-27 21:30 IZ7SLZ 0.475819 -37 0 JN80nu = 100 2E0ILY IO82 1998 317 2015-05-27 21:30 IZ7SLZ 0.475822 -18 0 JN80nu = 100 DG3LV JO53gv 1531 344 2015-05-27 21:30 IZ7SLZ 0.475817 -25 1 JN80nu = 100 G4JVF IO93if 1949 321 2015-05-27 21:30 IZ7SLZ 0.475821 -32 0 JN80nu = 100 EA4NZ IN80dm 1753 276 2015-05-27 21:30 IZ7SLZ 0.475823 -27 0 JN80nu = 100 DF8UO JN48ex 1135 326 2015-05-27 21:30 IZ7SLZ 0.475821 -34 0 JN80nu = 100 DI2AX JO44ad 1625 338 2015-05-27 21:30 IZ7SLZ 0.475763 -16 0 JN80nu = 100 PA3ABK/15 JO21it 1543 326 wspr-2 (6 spots) 2015-05-27 21:26 IZ7SLZ 0.475777 -28 0 JN80nu = 100 SM2DJK KP03au 2565 3 2015-05-27 21:26 IZ7SLZ 0.475779 -19 0 JN80nu = 100 PE1RKT JO22fb 1575 327 2015-05-27 21:26 IZ7SLZ 0.475777 -25 0 JN80nu = 100 PA3ABK/2 JO21it 1543 326 2015-05-27 21:26 IZ7SLZ 0.475777 -25 0 JN80nu = 100 G8LCO IO91vu 1799 319 2015-05-27 21:26 IZ7SLZ 0.475778 -19 0 JN80nu = 100 PA0RDT JO11tm 1572 324 2015-05-27 21:26 IZ7SLZ 0.475778 -25 0 JN80nu = 100 EA5DOM-1 IM98xn 1488 266 These are very few data to perform a good statistic analisys for a SNR comp= arison. BTW i can observe a consistent increase of spots for WSPR-15, taking also = in account that number of WSPR-2 receivers are, i guess, more than WSPR-15. On 5/31/2015 9:10 AM, wolf_dl4yhf wrote: Greetings all, About the different SNR indications of WSPR-2 and -15 : The question is how WSPR estimates the "noise" vale .. possibly using the '= lower quartile' method described by G4JNT once upon a time, i.e. sorting th= e FFT frequency bins from a certain frequency range (which.. ?) by amplitud= e and taking the bin, corrected by something, as an estimate for t= he noise level ? In that case, because I guess the frequency bins are only 1/8th as wide in = WSPR-15 than in WSPR-2, the indicated noise level may depend a lot on the d= rift rate of all those 'nasty little QRM spikes' (in the spectrum), and thi= s may be different for each and every receiver location. Here are my decodes for DF6NM and G4JNT (maybe Markus wants to compare).. WSPR-15: 2245 -2 -1.3 0.475824 0 DF6NM JN59 27 2315 -20 -0.6 0.475810 0 G4JNT IO90 33 2330 -8 -1.3 0.475824 0 DF6NM JN59 27 2345 -17 -0.6 0.475810 0 G4JNT IO90 33 0015 -15 -0.9 0.475810 -1 G4JNT IO90 33 0030 -2 -1.3 0.475824 0 DF6NM JN59 27 0100 -17 -0.6 0.475810 0 G4JNT IO90 33 0130 -11 -0.6 0.475810 0 G4JNT IO90 33 0130 -6 -1.3 0.475824 0 DF6NM JN59 27 0230 -5 -1.3 0.475824 0 DF6NM JN59 27 0245 -20 -0.6 0.475810 0 G4JNT IO90 33 0330 -7 -1.3 0.475824 0 DF6NM JN59 27 0345 -31 -0.9 0.475810 -1 G4JNT IO90 33 (btw interesting to see G4JNT dropping so low at 03:45, guess that one woul= d possibly NOT have been decoded in WSPR-2) DF6NM in WSPR-2: 2328 -11 -1.5 0.475791 0 DF6NM JN59 27 2346 -11 -1.7 0.475791 0 DF6NM JN59 27 0028 -7 -1.7 0.475791 0 DF6NM JN59 27 0046 0 -1.5 0.475791 0 DF6NM JN59 27 0128 1 -1.5 0.475791 0 DF6NM JN59 27 0228 -3 -1.5 0.475791 0 DF6NM JN59 27 0246 -2 -1.7 0.475791 0 DF6NM JN59 27 0328 -5 -1.4 0.475791 0 DF6NM JN59 27 0346 -12 -1.5 0.475792 0 DF6NM JN59 27 >From the last transmission (03:30 to 03:45 in WSPR-15): -7 dB Average between the adjacent WSPR-2 transmissions: -8.5 dB (-> very similar results as from SM2DJK and DG3LV.... -15 shows 1.5 dB "be= tter") 73, Wolf DL4YHF (receiver several hundred meters away from houses, but mains-fed -> QRM) Am 31.05.2015 02:07, schrieb Markus Vester: Yeah maybe. But at the moment I'd rather keep things as simple as possible,= and I anyway wouldn't expect a sharp optimum regarding speed. The idea is to compare the SNR of the slow sequence with the average of the= two surrounding fast sequences, received by the same monitor. If the dB re= sults were the same, we could probably exploit the full 9 dB advantage due = to the lower threshold (-38 vs -29 dB), otherwise we'd have to subtract the= dB difference. Results from first round: 2015-05-30 23:46 DF6NM 0.475791 -11 0 JN59nj 0.5 DL4YHF JO= 42fd 359 330 2015-05-30 23:30 DF6NM 0.475824 -8 0 JN59nj 0.5 DL4YHF JO4= 2fd 359 330 2015-05-30 23:28 DF6NM 0.475791 -11 0 JN59nj 0.5 DL4YHF JO= 42fd 359 330 =3D> WSPR-15 SNR happened to be 3 dB better! 2015-05-30 23:46 DF6NM 0.475790 -15 0 JN59nj 0.5 SM2DJK KP= 03au 1694 15 2015-05-30 23:30 DF6NM 0.475823 -13 0 JN59nj 0.5 SM2DJK KP= 03au 1694 15 2015-05-30 23:28 DF6NM 0.475790 -14 0 JN59nj 0.5 SM2DJK KP= 03au 1694 15 =3D> WSPR-15 shows 1.5 dB better. 2015-05-30 23:46 DF6NM 0.475792 +1 0 JN59nj 0.5 DG3LV JO53= gv 502 356 2015-05-30 23:30 DF6NM 0.475824 -2 0 JN59nj 0.5 DG3LV JO53= gv 502 356 2015-05-30 23:28 DF6NM 0.475792 -8 0 JN59nj 0.5 DG3LV JO53= gv 502 356 =3D> WSPR-15 shows 1.5 dB better. This is an unexpected result, implying that the advantage of WSPR-15 would = be more than 9 dB, instead of less. But on the other hand the dB values may= not be telling the whole story, because the threshold for a fading signal = might still be higher than -38 dB. All the best, Markus (DF6NM) From: DK7FC Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2015 1:33 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Dual-speed WSPR Markus, What about the old slow-WSPR by DF6NM? It could be useful to try WSPR-4 for= experiments. There is not just 2 and 15. And WSPR-120 on VLF... No problem= ! 73, Stefan Am 31.05.2015 01:28, schrieb Markus Vester: To allow SNR comparisons at different speeds, I will transmit a mixed-mode = beacon tonight. It will consist of two WSPR-2 sequences, before and after a= WSPR-15 sequence on each odd half hour: hh:28 - hh:30: WSPR-2 475.790 kHz hh:30 - hh:45: WSPR-15 475.823 kHz hh:46 - hh:48: WSPR-2 475.790 kHz Transmitter power is currently 25 watts into an antenna with 2% efficiency.= Am listening to both modes at all other times. All the best, Markus (DF6NM) --_000_579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB1B10F930servigilantvigi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi MF

One more test here to check if there is any difference in SNR when usi= ng WSPR-2 and WSPR-15
for a short path

I set my U3 at QRPP. Low enought to get about -9dB at WSPR-2 at my rem= ote monitor 7Km away
Reports went down from -9 to -13 and then I changed to WSPR-15 at 22:0= 0
As you can see, SNR keeps very close at -13/-12 increasing at sunrise = time, which is the usual
behaviour for this short path (better signals on daylight) ending agai= n at -9dB WSPR-15

So, no difference in SNR observed here. Your mileage may vary ;-)

2015-06-01 19:36  EA5DOM  0.475792  -9&n= bsp; 0  IM98wn  0.01  EA5DOM-1 &nbs= p;IM98xn  7  90  2015-06-01 19:48  = EA5DOM  0.475781  -10  0  IM98wn&nb= sp; 0.01  EA5DOM-1  IM98xn  7  = ;90  2015-06-01 20:00  EA5DOM  0.475781 =  -10  0  IM98wn  0.01  EA5DOM-= 1  IM98xn  7  90  2015-06-01 20:12  EA5DOM  0.475781  -10  0&nb= sp; IM98wn  0.01  EA5DOM-1  IM98xn =  7  90  2015-06-01 20:24  EA5DOM &n= bsp;0.475781  -10  0  IM98wn  0.01&= nbsp; EA5DOM-1  IM98xn  7  90  = ;2015-06-01 20:36  EA5DOM  0.475781  -10 = ; 0  IM98wn  0.01  EA5DOM-1  I= M98xn  7  90  2015-06-01 20:48  EA5= DOM  0.475781  -12  0  IM98wn =  0.01  EA5DOM-1  IM98xn  7  90=   2015-06-01 21:00  EA5DOM  0.475781  -11  0&nb= sp; IM98wn  0.01  EA5DOM-1  IM98xn =  7  90  2015-06-01 21:12  EA5DOM &n= bsp;0.475781  -11  0  IM98wn  0.01&= nbsp; EA5DOM-1  IM98xn  7  90  = ;2015-06-01 21:24  EA5DOM  0.475781  -11 = ; 0  IM98wn  0.01  EA5DOM-1  I= M98xn  7  90  2015-06-01 21:36  EA5= DOM  0.475781  -12  0  IM98wn =  0.01  EA5DOM-1  IM98xn  7  90=   2015-06-01 21:48  EA5DOM  0.475781  -13  0&nb= sp; IM98wn  0.01  EA5DOM-1  IM98xn =  7  90  2015-06-01 22:00  EA5DOM &n= bsp;0.475807  -12  1  IM98wn  0.001=   EA5DOM-4  IM98xn  7  90 &nbs= p;2015-06-01 22:30  EA5DOM  0.475806  -13&nbs= p; 1  IM98wn  0.001  EA5DOM-4  = ;IM98xn  7  90  2015-06-01 23:00  E= A5DOM  0.475806  -12  1  IM98wn&nbs= p; 0.001  EA5DOM-4  IM98xn  7  = ;90  2015-06-01 23:30  EA5DOM  0.475806  -13  1&nb= sp; IM98wn  0.001  EA5DOM-4  IM98xn = ; 7  90  2015-06-02 00:00  EA5DOM &= nbsp;0.475806  -13  1  IM98wn  0.00= 1  EA5DOM-4  IM98xn  7  90 &nb= sp;2015-06-02 00:30  EA5DOM  0.475806  -13&nb= sp; 1  IM98wn  0.001  EA5DOM-4 &nbs= p;IM98xn  7  90  2015-06-02 01:00  = EA5DOM  0.475806  -12  1  IM98wn&nb= sp; 0.001  EA5DOM-4  IM98xn  7 &nbs= p;90  2015-06-02 01:30  EA5DOM  0.475806  -12  1&nb= sp; IM98wn  0.001  EA5DOM-4  IM98xn = ; 7  90  2015-06-02 02:00  EA5DOM &= nbsp;0.475806  -12  1  IM98wn  0.00= 1  EA5DOM-4  IM98xn  7  90 &nb= sp;2015-06-02 02:30  EA5DOM  0.475806  -12&nb= sp; 1  IM98wn  0.001  EA5DOM-4 &nbs= p;IM98xn  7  90  2015-06-02 03:00  = EA5DOM  0.475806  -12  1  IM98wn&nb= sp; 0.001  EA5DOM-4  IM98xn  7 &nbs= p;90  2015-06-02 03:30  EA5DOM  0.475806  -12  1&nb= sp; IM98wn  0.001  EA5DOM-4  IM98xn = ; 7  90  2015-06-02 04:00  EA5DOM &= nbsp;0.475806  -13  1  IM98wn  0.00= 1  EA5DOM-4  IM98xn  7  90 &nb= sp;2015-06-02 04:30  EA5DOM  0.475806  -12&nb= sp; 1  IM98wn  0.001  EA5DOM-4 &nbs= p;IM98xn  7  90  2015-06-02 05:00  = EA5DOM  0.475806  -12  1  IM98wn&nb= sp; 0.001  EA5DOM-4  IM98xn  7 &nbs= p;90  2015-06-02 05:30  EA5DOM  0.475806  -11  1&nb= sp; IM98wn  0.001  EA5DOM-4  IM98xn = ; 7  90  2015-06-02 06:00  EA5DOM &= nbsp;0.475806  -10  1  IM98wn  0.00= 1  EA5DOM-4  IM98xn  7  90 &nb= sp;2015-06-02 06:30  EA5DOM  0.475806  -9&nbs= p; 1  IM98wn  0.001  EA5DOM-4  = ;IM98xn  7  90 

73 de Luis
EA5DOM

De: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [o= wner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] en nombre de IZ7SLZ [iz7slz.domenico@gma= il.com]
Enviado: lunes, 1 de junio de 2015 9:22
Para: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
CC: wolf_dl4yhf
Asunto: Re: LF: Dual-speed WSPR

Good day all,

i did a similar test on may 27  night by transmitting, in close time i= nterval,  some WSPR-2  and WSPR-15 sequences. For Markus statisti= cs, these are results:


Timestamp             =        Call        &= nbsp;   MHz          SNR =    Drift    Grid      &nb= sp; Pwr    Reporter    RGrid   = ;     km        az
wspr-2 (5 spots)           =               &= nbsp;            
 2015-05-27 22:16      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475777      -16      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  IK1WVQ      JN44cb       = ;   813      299
 2015-05-27 22:16      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475778      -28      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  EA5DOM-1      IM98xn      148= 8      266
 2015-05-27 22:16      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475778      -27      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  DF2JP      JO31hh       =        1414      329
 2015-05-27 22:16      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475777      -25      1  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  PA3ABK/2      JO21it      &nb= sp;   1543      326
 2015-05-27 22:16      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475777      -24      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  F6GEX      IN97na       =        1591      302
wspr-15 (11 spots)          =                 = ;             
 2015-05-27 22:00      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475763      -12      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  PA3ABK/15      JO21it      15= 43      326
 2015-05-27 22:00      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475821      -36      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  G3WCB      IO80di       =        1924      310
 2015-05-27 22:00      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475821      -27      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  DI2AX      JO44ad       =        1625      338
 2015-05-27 22:00      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475821      -27      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  DF2JP      JO31hh       =        1414      329
 2015-05-27 22:00      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475822      -19      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  DG3LV      JO53gv       =        1531      344
 2015-05-27 22:00      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475820      -36      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  SM2DJK      KP03au       &nbs= p;    2565      3
 2015-05-27 22:00      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475823      -20      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  DF8UO      JN48ex       =        1135      326
 2015-05-27 22:00      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475822      -26      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  EA5DOM-4      IM98xn      &nb= sp;  1488      266
 2015-05-27 22:00      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475821      -35      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  EA4NZ      IN80dm        = ;      1753      276
 2015-05-27 22:00      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475821      -27      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  DD7PC      JN49ax        = ;     1236      328
 2015-05-27 22:00      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475763      -15      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  IK1WVQ      JN44cb       &nbs= p;      813      299
wspr-2 (2 spots)          &n= bsp;               &= nbsp;            
 2015-05-27 21:56      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475778      -28      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  EA5DOM-1      IM98xn      148= 8      266
 2015-05-27 21:56      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475778      -24      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  DF2JP      JO31hh      1414 &= nbsp;    329
wspr-2 (5 spots)          &n= bsp;               &= nbsp;            
 2015-05-27 21:46      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475778      -24      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  F5WK      JN18hp      1432 &n= bsp;    312
 2015-05-27 21:46      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475778      -19      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  G6AVK      JO01ho      1736 &= nbsp;    319
 2015-05-27 21:46      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475778      -20      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  PA0A      JO33de      1595 &n= bsp;    333
 2015-05-27 21:46      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475777      -23      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  G8LCO      IO91vu      1799 &= nbsp;    319
 2015-05-27 21:46      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475778      -27      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  PI4THT      JO32kf      1485 =      332
wspr-15 (12 spots)          =                 = ;             
 2015-05-27 21:30      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475821      -34      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  G3WCB      IO80di        = ;  1924      310
 2015-05-27 21:30      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475822      -26      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  DF2JP      JO31hh        = ;  1414      329
 2015-05-27 21:30      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475821      -34      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  DD7PC      JN49ax        = ;  1236      328
 2015-05-27 21:30      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475820      -36      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  SM2DJK      KP03au       &nbs= p;  2565      3
 2015-05-27 21:30      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475818      -38      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  DK7FC/P      JN49ik       &nb= sp;  1159      328
 2015-05-27 21:30      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475819      -37      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  2E0ILY      IO82       &= nbsp;          1998      = 317
 2015-05-27 21:30      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475822      -18      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  DG3LV      JO53gv        = ;  1531      344
 2015-05-27 21:30      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475817      -25      1  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  G4JVF      IO93if       =       1949      321
 2015-05-27 21:30      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475821      -32      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  EA4NZ      IN80dm        = ;  1753      276
 2015-05-27 21:30      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475823      -27      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  DF8UO      JN48ex       =    1135      326
 2015-05-27 21:30      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475821      -34      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  DI2AX      JO44ad       =    1625      338
 2015-05-27 21:30      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475763      -16      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  PA3ABK/15      JO21it      15= 43      326
wspr-2 (6 spots)          &n= bsp;               &= nbsp;            
 2015-05-27 21:26      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475777      -28      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  SM2DJK      KP03au      2565 =      3
 2015-05-27 21:26      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475779      -19      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  PE1RKT      JO22fb      1575 =      327
 2015-05-27 21:26      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475777      -25      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  PA3ABK/2      JO21it      154= 3      326
 2015-05-27 21:26      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475777      -25      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  G8LCO      IO91vu      1799 &= nbsp;    319
 2015-05-27 21:26      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475778      -19      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  PA0RDT      JO11tm      1572 =      324
 2015-05-27 21:26      IZ7SLZ     &= nbsp;0.475778      -25      0  = ;    JN80nu      100     =  EA5DOM-1      IM98xn      148= 8      266

These are very few data to perform a good statistic analisys for a SNR comp= arison.
BTW i can  observe a consistent increase of spots for WSPR-15, taking = also in account that number of WSPR-2 receivers are, i guess, more than WSP= R-15.

On 5/31/2015 9:10 AM, wolf_dl4yhf wrote:

Greetings all,

About the different SNR indications of WSPR-2 and -15 :
The question is how WSPR estimates the "noise" vale .. possibly u= sing the 'lower quartile' method described by G4JNT once upon a time, i.e. = sorting the FFT frequency bins from a certain frequency range (which.. ?) b= y amplitude and taking the <N/4-th> bin, corrected by something, as an estimate for the noise level ?
In that case, because I guess the frequency bins are only 1/8th as wide in = WSPR-15 than in WSPR-2, the indicated noise level may depend a lot on the d= rift rate of all those 'nasty little QRM spikes' (in the spectrum), and thi= s may be different for each and every receiver location.

Here are my decodes for DF6NM and G4JNT (maybe Markus wants to compare)..
WSPR-15:

2245 -2 -1.3 0.475824 0 DF6NM JN59 27

2315 -20 -0.6 0.475810 0 G4JNT IO90 33

2330 -8 -1.3 0.475824 0 DF6NM JN59 27

2345 -17 -0.6 0.475810 0 G4JNT IO90 33

0015 -15 -0.9 0.475810 -1 G4JNT IO90 33

0030 -2 -1.3 0.475824 0 DF6NM JN59 27

0100 -17 -0.6 0.475810 0 G4JNT IO90 33

0130 -11 -0.6 0.475810 0 G4JNT IO90 33

0130 -6 -1.3 0.475824 0 DF6NM JN59 27

0230 -5 -1.3 0.475824 0 DF6NM JN59 27

0245 -20 -0.6 0.475810 0 G4JNT IO90 33

0330 -7 -1.3 0.475824 0 DF6NM JN59 27

0345 -31 -0.9 0.475810 -1 G4JNT IO90 33


(btw interesting to see G4JNT dropping so low at 03:45, guess that one woul= d possibly NOT have been decoded in WSPR-2)



DF6NM in WSPR-2:
2328 -11 -1.5 0.475791 0 DF6NM JN59 27
2346 -11 -1.7 0.475791 0 DF6NM JN59 27
0028 -7 -1.7 0.475791 0 DF6NM JN59 27
0046 0 -1.5 0.475791 0 DF6NM JN59 27

0128 1 -1.5 0.475791 0 DF6NM JN59 27

0228 -3 -1.5 0.475791 0 DF6NM JN59 27
0246 -2 -1.7 0.475791 0 DF6NM JN59 27


0328 -5 -1.4 0.475791 0 DF6NM JN59 27

0346 -12 -1.5 0.475792 0 DF6NM JN59 27


>From the last transmission (03:30 to 03:45 in WSPR-15): -7 dB
Average between the adjacent WSPR-2 transmissions: -8.5 dB

(-> very similar results as from SM2DJK and DG3LV....  -15 shows 1.= 5 dB "better")


73,
  Wolf DL4YHF
   (receiver several hundred meters away from houses, but mains-f= ed -> QRM)







Am 31.05.2015 02:07, schrieb Markus Vester:
Yeah maybe. But at the moment I'd rath= er keep things as simple as possible, and I anyway wouldn't expect a s= harp optimum regarding speed.
 
The idea is to compare the SNR of the = slow sequence with the average of the two surrounding fast sequences, recei= ved by the same monitor. If the dB results were the same, we coul= d probably exploit the full 9 dB advantage due to the lower threshold (-38 vs -29 dB), otherwise we'd have to subtract th= e dB difference.
 
Results from first round:
 
 2015-05-30 23:46   DF6= NM   0.475791   -11   0   JN59nj&nb= sp;  0.5   DL4YHF   JO42fd   359 &n= bsp; 330 
 2015-05-30 23:30   DF6NM   0.475824   -= 8   0   JN59nj   0.5   DL4YHF =   JO42fd   359   330  
 2015-05-30 23:28   DF6NM   0.475791   -= 11   0   JN59nj   0.5   DL4YHF = ;  JO42fd   359   330
=3D>= ; WSPR-15 SNR happened to be 3 dB better!
 
 2015-05-30 23:46   DF6= NM   0.475790   -15   0   JN59nj&nb= sp;  0.5   SM2DJK   KP03au   1694 &= nbsp; 15
 2015-05-30 23:30   DF6NM   0.475823   -= 13   0   JN59nj   0.5   SM2DJK = ;  KP03au   1694   15 
 2015-05-30 23:28   DF6= NM   0.475790   -14   0   JN59nj&nb= sp;  0.5   SM2DJK   KP03au   1694 &= nbsp; 15
=3D> WSPR-15 shows 1.5&nb= sp;dB better.
 
 2015-05-30 23:46   DF6NM   0.475792 &nb= sp; +1   0   JN59nj   0.5   DG3= LV   JO53gv   502   356 
 2015-05-30 23:30   DF6NM   0.475824 &nb= sp; -2   0   JN59nj   0.5   DG3LV&n= bsp;  JO53gv   502   356 
 2015-05-30 23:28   DF6NM   0.475792 &nb= sp; -8   0   JN59nj   0.5   DG3LV&n= bsp;  JO53gv   502   356
=3D> WSPR-15 shows 1.5 dB= better.
 
This is an unexpected result, implying that the advantage of WSPR= -15 would be more than 9 dB, instead of less. But on the other hand th= e dB values may not be telling the whole story, because the threshold = for a fading signal might still be higher than -38 dB.
 
All the best,
Markus (DF6NM)

From: DK7FC
Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2015 1:33 AM
Subject: Re: LF: Dual-speed WSPR

Markus,

What about the old slow-WSPR by DF6NM? It could be useful to try WSPR-4 for= experiments. There is not just 2 and 15. And WSPR-120 on VLF... No problem= !

73, Stefan

Am 31.05.2015 01:28, schrieb Markus Vester:
To allow SNR comparisons at different = speeds, I will transmit a mixed-mode beacon tonight. It will consist o= f two WSPR-2 sequences, before and after a WSPR-15 sequence on each od= d half hour:
 
hh:28 - hh:30: WSPR-2 475.790 kHz=
hh:30 - hh:45: WSPR-15 475.823 kHz
hh:46 - hh:48: WSPR-2 475.790 kHz=
 
Transmitter power is currently 25 watts into an antenna with = ;2% efficiency. Am listening to both modes at all other times.
 
All the best,
Markus (DF6NM)


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