Return-Path: X-Spam-DCC: paranoid 1170; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL, HTML_MESSAGE,HTML_TINY_FONT,RATWARE_GECKO_BUILD,SPF_PASS autolearn=no version=3.1.3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by paranoid.lipkowski.org (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id u2SBIXMR029274 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2016 13:18:33 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1akV6j-0006fI-ST for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 28 Mar 2016 12:13:17 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1akV6j-0006f9-7D for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 28 Mar 2016 12:13:17 +0100 Received: from smtpout.karoo.kcom.com ([212.50.160.34]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1akV6f-0004ge-R1 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 28 Mar 2016 12:13:16 +0100 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,406,1454976000"; d="scan'208,217";a="158708992" Received: from unknown (HELO [127.0.0.1]) ([109.176.231.201]) by smtpout.karoo.kcom.com with ESMTP; 28 Mar 2016 12:13:12 +0100 Message-ID: <56F911B5.2050701@lineone.net> Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 12:12:53 +0100 From: LineOne User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.1.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <094E96255B2D4EE9886317C115E7E5D9@Clemens0811> In-Reply-To: X-Scan-Signature: 165041da2561326d04b0660390afbcbc Subject: Re: [rsgb_lf_group] RE: Cheap and nasty sources - was LF: DK7FC WSPR bad quality problem Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------050304060209060403090906" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 10.1.3.11 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 7500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050304060209060403090906 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Surely a DDS runs off a 5V or 3.3V regulated power supply anyway so no 100Hz there from a power supply? With strong signals (over +10dB) I see the 1.465kHz sidebands but no other spurii. I have had trouble with RF leaking back into a PLL and causing jitter but a little extra, judicious screening fixed that. Hugh, M0DSZ On 27/03/2016 21:04, Andy Talbot wrote: > If you are referring to the close spaced lines making up the spectrum > of the two strong signals, from teh plot you show they appear to be > about 1.5Hz spacing. This is the WSPR symbol rate (actually 1.465Hz) > so the lines visible are the natural sidebands from the WSPR waveform. > > I'd be surprised if an DDS itself were generating 100Hz sidebands on > its own. Especially a more modern one like the AD9859. Even the > venerable AD9850 doesn't generate stuff only 40dB down. So I'd > still look for other means of 100Hz leakage. Perhaps getting onto > the reference source. I assume the two stations both reporting > 100Hz sidebands are using identical generating hardware ? > > I use an AD9852 for WSPR and generationg MFSK modes generally, a > device perhaps bit a bit older than the AD9859, but the same family, > and it is certainly clean down to at least -60dBc. When driven from > a higher clock frequency, better still. > > Andy G4JNT > > > On 27 March 2016 at 19:47, 'Clemens Paul' cpaul@gmx.net > [rsgb_lf_group] > > wrote: > > Hello all, > > I've been watching the 100Hz sideband WSPR multi-decodes also from > the other two strong stations on MW, > DH5RAE and DB0ABR.They are located about 65km from me and generate > S9++dB signals here. > The deoded sidebands are also about 40dB down. > DB0ABR has tried a different power supply to no avail and both > believe that the DDS synthesizer is the culprit. > It is a AD9859,see > http://www.dj0abr.de/index_english.html > I have added a perseus screenshot with a bin width of 0.24Hz > showing strange lines in their signal. > I'm not sure if this is the DDS spectrum what we see here. > > 73 > Clemens > DL4RAJ > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > > >[mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > ] On Behalf Of Andy Talbot > >Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 8:06 PM > >To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > ; > rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk > > >Subject: Cheap and nasty sources - was LF: DK7FC WSPR bad > >quality problem > > > >It is unfortunate these cheap and simple low power solutions > >have come-about at all. The originators who worked out how > >to generate a few milliwatts of Rf from very non-purpose > >designed hardware presumably never anticipated that eh great > >masses would end up connecting this unsuitable kit to high > >power amplifiers. I hope they only ever anticipated their > >being used for very low power uses. > > > >As for the R-PI, that really does look like a bad way of > >generating narrow band RF. I don't know the details of its > >internal hardare, but strongly suspect that it uses a > >jittering Fract-N route to generating arbitrary frequencies. > > Again, fine for a few milliwats of test signal, but > >certainly not for amplification to hundreds of milliwatts. > > > >If you want a decent high power source, use a DDS chip or a > >modern Fract-N synthesizer like the LMX2541. That device has > >an internal VCO and an output divider that allows it to > >generate as low as 35MHz - and then any external CMSO divider > >will allow you to go lower. And they are CLEAN - especially > >so when divided down to LF / HF > > > > > >Andy G4JNT > > > > > > > > > >On 27 March 2016 at 18:14, Graham > wrote: > > > > > > > > Andy, > > > > This time its not really Stefan's fault :-,) > > > > This is a problem , using the raspberry PI , the Pi > >processor uses interrupts, which, cause the execution time > >of the timing loops to vary slightly , > > the 'small' time variations , produce side bands . > > > > This was evident during the development of a R-PI > >routine for sending Opera , as the R-Pi support > >documentation is not particularly comprehensive, its 'not' > >possible to fully address the i/o functions and as such > >there exists a conflict with higher order irq requests . > >Producing seemingly random widening of the spectrum, > >depending on the irq deployments. > > > > Ie the pulse train suffers from timing jitter > > > > The alterative of the U3 beacon key'er , driving > >the DDS 'oscillator' is a more elegant solution, but as > >noted by Andy [rad-com] some time back, the later U3 with > >the PPL suffers from settling time issues , when > >commanded with , step frequency changes. these sever to > >produce sidebands , at the step changes. > > > > 73-G, > > > > > > From: F6CNI - Andy - JN19QB > > > Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2016 8:36 PM > > To: RSGB LF Group > > > Subject: LF: DK7FC WSPR bad quality problem > > > > > > Hello Stefan. > > > > > > > > I am sorry, but this evening you have a very poor > >quality WSPR signal on MF with many splatters, I think it is > >perhaps due to an overload TX AF level. > > > > > > > > That is not in phase with the normal ham spirit. So, > >please be kind to stop now your transmission and correct this > problem. > > > > > > > > On the way, can you say honnestly if your power is not > >over the legal limit ? > > > > > > > > Sincerly yours and my best 73 de Andy. > > > > > > > > P.S. > > > > > > > > Have a look below at some reports last hour showing the > >problem : > > > > > > > > > > > >2016-03-26 19:00 > > > >DK7FC > > > >0.475683 > > > >+12 > > > >0 > > > >JN49ik > > > >1 > > > >PI4THT > > > >JO32kf > > > >336 > > > >338 > > > >2016-03-26 19:00 > > > >DK7FC > > > >0.475783 > > > >-25 > > > >0 > > > >JN49ik > > > >1 > > > >PI4THT > > > >JO32kf > > > >336 > > > >338 > > > >2016-03-26 18:50 > > > >DK7FC > > > >0.475783 > > > >-23 > > > >0 > > > >JN49ik > > > >1 > > > >PE1RKT > > > >JO22fb > > > >418 > > > >316 > > > >2016-03-26 18:50 > > > >DK7FC > > > >0.475683 > > > >+14 > > > >1 > > > >JN49ik > > > >1 > > > >PE1RKT > > > >JO22fb > > > >418 > > > >316 > > > >2016-03-26 18:40 > > > >DK7FC > > > >0.475683 > > > >+12 > > > >0 > > > >JN49ik > > > >1 > > > >LA8AV > > > >JO59cs > > > >1153 > > > >4 > > > >2016-03-26 18:40 > > > >DK7FC > > > >0.475783 > > > >-24 > > > >0 > > > >JN49ik > > > >1 > > > >LA8AV > > > >JO59cs > > > >1153 > > > >4 > > > >2016-03-26 18:50 > > > >DK7FC > > > >0.475783 > > > >-28 > > > >0 > > > >JN49ik > > > >1 > > > >LA3JJ > > > >JO59bh > > > >1102 > > > >4 > > > >2016-03-26 18:50 > > > >DK7FC > > > >0.475683 > > > >+10 > > > >0 > > > >JN49ik > > > >1 > > > >LA3JJ > > > >JO59bh > > > >1102 > > > >4 > > > >2016-03-26 18:40 > > > >DK7FC > > > >0.475780 > > > >-28 > > > >1 > > > >JN49ik > > > >1 > > > >G3KEV > > > >IO94sh > > > >829 > > > >314 > > > >2016-03-26 18:40 > > > >DK7FC > > > >0.475679 > > > >+10 > > > >0 > > > >JN49ik > > > >1 > > > >G3KEV > > > >IO94sh > > > >829 > > > >314 > > > >2016-03-26 19:10 > > > >DK7FC > > > >0.475682 > > > >+13 > > > >0 > > > >JN49ik > > > >1 > > > >F6CNI > > > >JN19qb > > > >389 > > > >266 > > > >2016-03-26 19:10 > > > >DK7FC > > > >0.475782 > > > >-27 > > > >1 > > > >JN49ik > > > >1 > > > >F6CNI > > > >JN19qb > > > >389 > > > >266 > > > >2016-03-26 18:30 > > > >DK7FC > > > >0.475682 > > > >+15 > > > >0 > > > >JN49ik > > > >1 > > > >F5WK > > > >JN18hp > > > >452 > > > >261 > > > >2016-03-26 18:30 > > > >DK7FC > > > >0.475782 > > > >-22 > > > >0 > > > >JN49ik > > > >1 > > > >F5WK > > > >JN18hp > > > >452 > > > >261 > > > >2016-03-26 18:00 > > > >DK7FC > > > >0.475680 > > > >+19 > > > >0 > > > >JN49ik > > > >1 > > > >DL6II > > > >JO30nx > > > >205 > > > >327 > > > >2016-03-26 18:00 > > > >DK7FC > > > >0.475780 > > > >-18 > > > >0 > > > >JN49ik > > > >1 > > > >DL6II > > > >JO30nx > > > >205 > > > >327 > > > >2016-03-26 18:50 > > > >DK7FC > > > >0.475682 > > > >+17 > > > >0 > > > >JN49ik > > > >1 > > > >DL4RAJ/2 > > > >JN68kj > > > >326 > > > >109 > > > >2016-03-26 18:50 > > > >DK7FC > > > >0.475782 > > > >-22 > > > >0 > > > >JN49ik > > > >1 > > > >DL4RAJ/2 > > > >JN68kj > > > >326 > > > >109 > > > > > > > > > > > > __._,_.___ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Posted by: "Clemens Paul" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Reply via web post > > • Reply to sender > > • Reply to group > > • Start a new topic > > • Messages in this topic > > (2) > > Visit Your Group > > > > * New Members > > 1 > > Yahoo! Groups > > > • Privacy > • > Unsubscribe > > • Terms of Use > > > . > > __,_._,___ > > --------------050304060209060403090906 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Surely a DDS runs off a 5V or 3.3V regulated power supply anyway so no 100Hz there from a power supply?  With strong signals (over +10dB) I see the 1.465kHz sidebands but no other spurii.
I have had trouble with RF leaking back into a PLL and causing jitter but a little extra, judicious screening fixed that.

Hugh, M0DSZ


On 27/03/2016 21:04, Andy Talbot wrote:
If you are referring to the close spaced lines making up the spectrum of the two strong signals, from teh plot you show they appear to be about 1.5Hz spacing.  This is the WSPR symbol rate  (actually 1.465Hz) so the lines visible are the natural sidebands from the WSPR waveform.

I'd be surprised if an DDS itself were generating 100Hz sidebands on its own.   Especially a more modern one like the AD9859.    Even the venerable AD9850 doesn't generate stuff only 40dB down.    So I'd still look for other means of 100Hz leakage.   Perhaps getting onto  the reference source.     I assume the two stations both reporting 100Hz sidebands are using identical generating hardware ?

I use an AD9852 for WSPR and generationg MFSK modes generally, a device perhaps bit a bit older than the AD9859, but the same family, and it is certainly clean down to at least -60dBc.   When driven from a higher clock frequency, better still.

Andy  G4JNT


On 27 March 2016 at 19:47, 'Clemens Paul' cpaul@gmx.net [rsgb_lf_group] <rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk> wrote:
 

Hello all,

I've been watching the 100Hz sideband WSPR multi-decodes also from the other two strong stations on MW,
DH5RAE and DB0ABR.They are located about 65km from me and generate S9++dB signals here.
The deoded sidebands are also about 40dB down.
DB0ABR has tried a different power supply to no avail and both believe that the DDS synthesizer is the culprit.
It is a AD9859,see
http://www.dj0abr.de/index_english.html
I have added a perseus screenshot with a bin width of 0.24Hz showing strange lines in their signal.
I'm not sure if this is the DDS spectrum what we see here.

73
Clemens
DL4RAJ

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
>[mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Andy Talbot
>Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 8:06 PM
>To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk
>Subject: Cheap and nasty sources - was LF: DK7FC WSPR bad
>quality problem
>
>It is unfortunate these cheap and simple low power solutions
>have come-about at all. The originators who worked out how
>to generate a few milliwatts of Rf from very non-purpose
>designed hardware presumably never anticipated that eh great
>masses would end up connecting this unsuitable kit to high
>power amplifiers. I hope they only ever anticipated their
>being used for very low power uses.
>
>As for the R-PI, that really does look like a bad way of
>generating narrow band RF. I don't know the details of its
>internal hardare, but strongly suspect that it uses a
>jittering Fract-N route to generating arbitrary frequencies.
> Again, fine for a few milliwats of test signal, but
>certainly not for amplification to hundreds of milliwatts.
>
>If you want a decent high power source, use a DDS chip or a
>modern Fract-N synthesizer like the LMX2541. That device has
>an internal VCO and an output divider that allows it to
>generate as low as 35MHz - and then any external CMSO divider
>will allow you to go lower. And they are CLEAN - especially
>so when divided down to LF / HF
>
>
>Andy G4JNT
>
>
>
>
>On 27 March 2016 at 18:14, Graham <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
> Andy,
>
> This time its not really Stefan's fault :-,)
>
> This is a problem , using the raspberry PI , the Pi
>processor uses interrupts, which, cause the execution time
>of the timing loops to vary slightly ,
> the 'small' time variations , produce side bands .
>
> This was evident during the development of a R-PI
>routine for sending Opera , as the R-Pi support
>documentation is not particularly comprehensive, its 'not'
>possible to fully address the i/o functions and as such
>there exists a conflict with higher order irq requests .
>Producing seemingly random widening of the spectrum,
>depending on the irq deployments.
>
> Ie the pulse train suffers from timing jitter
>
> The alterative of the U3 beacon key'er , driving
>the DDS 'oscillator' is a more elegant solution, but as
>noted by Andy [rad-com] some time back, the later U3 with
>the PPL suffers from settling time issues , when
>commanded with , step frequency changes. these sever to
>produce sidebands , at the step changes.
>
> 73-G,
>
>
> From: F6CNI - Andy - JN19QB <mailto:f6cni@orange.fr>
> Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2016 8:36 PM
> To: RSGB LF Group <mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
> Subject: LF: DK7FC WSPR bad quality problem
>
>
> Hello Stefan.
>
>
>
> I am sorry, but this evening you have a very poor
>quality WSPR signal on MF with many splatters, I think it is
>perhaps due to an overload TX AF level.
>
>
>
> That is not in phase with the normal ham spirit. So,
>please be kind to stop now your transmission and correct this problem.
>
>
>
> On the way, can you say honnestly if your power is not
>over the legal limit ?
>
>
>
> Sincerly yours and my best 73 de Andy.
>
>
>
> P.S.
>
>
>
> Have a look below at some reports last hour showing the
>problem :
>
>
>
>
>
>2016-03-26 19:00
>
>DK7FC
>
>0.475683
>
>+12
>
>0
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>PI4THT
>
>JO32kf
>
>336
>
>338
>
>2016-03-26 19:00
>
>DK7FC
>
>0.475783
>
>-25
>
>0
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>PI4THT
>
>JO32kf
>
>336
>
>338
>
>2016-03-26 18:50
>
>DK7FC
>
>0.475783
>
>-23
>
>0
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>PE1RKT
>
>JO22fb
>
>418
>
>316
>
>2016-03-26 18:50
>
>DK7FC
>
>0.475683
>
>+14
>
>1
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>PE1RKT
>
>JO22fb
>
>418
>
>316
>
>2016-03-26 18:40
>
>DK7FC
>
>0.475683
>
>+12
>
>0
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>LA8AV
>
>JO59cs
>
>1153
>
>4
>
>2016-03-26 18:40
>
>DK7FC
>
>0.475783
>
>-24
>
>0
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>LA8AV
>
>JO59cs
>
>1153
>
>4
>
>2016-03-26 18:50
>
>DK7FC
>
>0.475783
>
>-28
>
>0
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>LA3JJ
>
>JO59bh
>
>1102
>
>4
>
>2016-03-26 18:50
>
>DK7FC
>
>0.475683
>
>+10
>
>0
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>LA3JJ
>
>JO59bh
>
>1102
>
>4
>
>2016-03-26 18:40
>
>DK7FC
>
>0.475780
>
>-28
>
>1
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>G3KEV
>
>IO94sh
>
>829
>
>314
>
>2016-03-26 18:40
>
>DK7FC
>
>0.475679
>
>+10
>
>0
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>G3KEV
>
>IO94sh
>
>829
>
>314
>
>2016-03-26 19:10
>
>DK7FC
>
>0.475682
>
>+13
>
>0
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>F6CNI
>
>JN19qb
>
>389
>
>266
>
>2016-03-26 19:10
>
>DK7FC
>
>0.475782
>
>-27
>
>1
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>F6CNI
>
>JN19qb
>
>389
>
>266
>
>2016-03-26 18:30
>
>DK7FC
>
>0.475682
>
>+15
>
>0
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>F5WK
>
>JN18hp
>
>452
>
>261
>
>2016-03-26 18:30
>
>DK7FC
>
>0.475782
>
>-22
>
>0
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>F5WK
>
>JN18hp
>
>452
>
>261
>
>2016-03-26 18:00
>
>DK7FC
>
>0.475680
>
>+19
>
>0
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>DL6II
>
>JO30nx
>
>205
>
>327
>
>2016-03-26 18:00
>
>DK7FC
>
>0.475780
>
>-18
>
>0
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>DL6II
>
>JO30nx
>
>205
>
>327
>
>2016-03-26 18:50
>
>DK7FC
>
>0.475682
>
>+17
>
>0
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>DL4RAJ/2
>
>JN68kj
>
>326
>
>109
>
>2016-03-26 18:50
>
>DK7FC
>
>0.475782
>
>-22
>
>0
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>DL4RAJ/2
>
>JN68kj
>
>326
>
>109
>
>
>
>
>

__._,_.___
Posted by: "Clemens Paul" <cpaul@gmx.net>
Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a new topic • Messages in this topic (2)

.

__,_._,___


--------------050304060209060403090906--