Return-Path: X-Spam-DCC: paranoid 1233; Body=3 Fuz1=3 Fuz2=3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK, HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by paranoid.lipkowski.org (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id sBVKvZ3Z028704 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 2014 21:57:35 +0100 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Y6QEr-00039s-T8 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Dec 2014 20:51:29 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Y6QEr-00039j-DC for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Dec 2014 20:51:29 +0000 Received: from rgout01.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk ([65.20.0.178]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1Y6QEp-0001Ch-4X for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Dec 2014 20:51:28 +0000 X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A090202.54A461CD.002D,ss=1,re=0.000,recu=0.000,reip=0.000,cl=1,cld=1,fgs=0 X-Junkmail-Premium-Raw: score=39/50,refid=2.7.2:2014.12.31.164221:17:39.532,ip=86.180.152.94,rules=__HAS_MSGID, __SANE_MSGID, MSGID_32HEX_LC, INVALID_MSGID_NO_FQDN, __MSGID_32HEX, __HAS_FROM, __PHISH_FROM2, __FRAUD_WEBMAIL_FROM, __TO_MALFORMED_2, __TO_NO_NAME, __REFERENCES, __BOUNCE_CHALLENGE_SUBJ, __BOUNCE_NDR_SUBJ_EXEMPT, __SUBJ_ALPHA_END, __MIME_VERSION, __CT, __CTYPE_MULTIPART_ALT, __CTYPE_HAS_BOUNDARY, __CTYPE_MULTIPART, __HAS_X_PRIORITY, __HAS_MSMAIL_PRI, __HAS_X_MAILER, USER_AGENT_OE, __OUTLOOK_MUA_1, __USER_AGENT_MS_GENERIC, __ANY_URI, __URI_NO_PATH, __CP_NAME_BODY, __INT_PROD_MP3, __SUBJ_ALPHA_NEGATE, SUPERLONG_LINE, __HAS_HTML, HTML_NO_HTTP, BODY_SIZE_10000_PLUS, BODYTEXTH_SIZE_10000_LESS, __MIME_HTML, __TAG_EXISTS_HTML, RDNS_GENERIC_POOLED, __URI_NS, SXL_IP_DYNAMIC[94.152.180.86.fur], RDNS_SUSP_GENERIC, __PHISH_FROM, __OUTLOOK_MUA, RDNS_SUSP, __FRAUD_WEBMAIL, FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK, REFERENCES X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown Received: from gnat (86.180.152.94) by rgout01.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk (8.6.122.06) (authenticated as alan.melia@btinternet.com) id 5496BF4300F46CF3 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Dec 2014 20:51:25 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btinternet.com; s=btcpcloud; t=1420059087; bh=yk0I4rSU7rh5HgTU8xHILOETgLFTekGBc//tzAnTEP4=; h=Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:X-Mailer; b=lLaTWB1FQPx/25r6mn7BZkErmQMMIaj42uS93FXG4jJmLVVh3l4ylZQx1Lg8RR1LGk+964boI7xSnhRGmSzRumWg50lp+mqcBLgT5U87NFFpjay2dQ0RDM4RWkiPbqD8jtr7uhaAMsU5f2TPNw1E8un5B6MgbnqyRz6XjHqFlx0= Message-ID: <5659D71A655D486FB2F427ADFB061936@gnat> From: "Alan Melia" To: References: <5861243094DD42FDA080300B6BE9500F@White> <54A45E1F.1000704@netspace.net.au> Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 20:51:26 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Scan-Signature: ce3df9f2acd7587159138e0455ceb9aa Subject: Re: LF: Closure of German Longwave Broadcast Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0131_01D0253B.8B95E8A0" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 10.1.3.10 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1684 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0131_01D0253B.8B95E8A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sadly it is all about money these facilities are expensive to run. Mast = maintenance and insurance for LF alone is frightening without the = electricity bill, and the value of the real estate. There was a move to = shut Droitwich a year or so back but that produced a public outcry and = of course it has a contract with NPL to distribute time & frequency The = BBC backed down......at the moment. Hopefully enough MF BC station will = remain to retain the "crystal set magic" effect. Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Richard Rogers=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 8:35 PM Subject: Re: LF: Closure of German Longwave Broadcast Very well said. On 01-Jan-15 2:21 AM, Markus Vester wrote: As announced before, the German longwave broadcast transmissions on = 153 and 207 kHz (Deutschlandfunk) and 177 kHz (Deutschlandradio) will be = terminated with the New Year 2015. Presumably mediumwave AM = transmissions will follow one year later. It has been claimed that the = continuation would be too costly, considering the relatively small = number of AM listeners. Along with others, I think that this is a sad landmark in radio = history, because - AM radio is simple and intuitive. The concepts of AM transmission = and reception are easy to conceive, even by a child. And it's motivating = to play with it. In a few years, the kids can still build a diode = receiver, but listening to the small surrogate oscillator Daddy has = hidden behind the sofa will surely not be the same thing!=20 Then try to explain digital audio broadcasting to your grandson, all = the way from end-to-end (microphone to speaker. I even have strong = doubts that there is a single expert person now who understands the = whole chain. Every engineer is supposed to be working on the details of = a small subpart, knows little more than he "needs to know", and = communication is done by formal processes and requirement = specifications. Of course this is a general trend in industry, but I = don't think it is very desirable.=20 - AM is linear. Listening to 153 kHz in the evening hours, faint = Algerian music can be heard in the background. When I was young I was = fascinated by those distant sounds, and it probably contributed strongly = to my later interest in "DX". You can actually hear that the radio waves = have come a long way, experience selective fading, and solar effects, or = subtle ionospheric effects like Luxembourg crossmodulation. Modern = digital radio considers all this undesirable interference - what you get = is either perfect mp3 stereo, or nothing at all. - AM is a historic legacy. Especially on longwave, each transmitter = and antenna coupler is a unique installation, and the antennas are = impressive monuments. SAQ is a good example: While it's no longer needed = for transatlantic communication, it's still being kept alive as an = educative and fascinating world heritage. Why not keep at least one = large LF broadcast transmitter? - LF and MF radio is efficient. The half-megawatt Donebach = transmitter probably consumes a million Euros worth of energy per year, = and in addition, there is antenna and transmitter maintenance to be paid = for. But it provides gapless service across many million square = kilometers. Similar coverage with DAB will probably require a thousand = or more digital transmitters, which in total may well consume a higher = amount of power and secondary costs. One difficulty about keeping LF = transmitters alive may actually be there are so few of them - as most = engineers seem to be working on software and silicon chip-level = hardware, it may become hard to make spare parts and find experienced = service people for high-voltage RF in the future. - Radio helps to protect against spectrum pollution. Members of the = LF group are only too aware of the inflation of inadequately filtered = SMPS power supplies, "dirty" ADSL and PLC communication over unshielded = copper lines, and upcoming threats like inductive e-car charging = devices. Currently there are still EMC regulations in place which at = least provide some limit on radiated and conducted interference above = 150 kHz. But when there are no more AM broadcast listeners, why should = anyone invest effort to protect that part of spectrum against local = interference? The situation for those few crazy LF enthusiasts who enjoy = digging down to the noise floor may soon become comparable to that of = backyard astronomers in an urban environment - ie plain frustrating. End of rant... Anyway, all the best for the new year, Markus (DF6NM) No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4257/8841 - Release Date: = 12/30/14 --=20 73, Ric VK7RO ------=_NextPart_000_0131_01D0253B.8B95E8A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sadly it is all about money these = facilities are=20 expensive to run. Mast maintenance and insurance for LF alone is = frightening=20 without the electricity bill, and the value of the real estate. There = was a move=20 to shut Droitwich a year or so back but that produced a public = outcry and=20 of course it has a contract with NPL to distribute time & = frequency The=20 BBC backed down......at the moment. Hopefully enough MF BC station will = remain=20 to retain the "crystal set magic" effect.
 
Alan G3NYK
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Richard=20 Rogers
Sent: Wednesday, December 31, = 2014 8:35=20 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Closure of = German=20 Longwave Broadcast

Very well said.

On 01-Jan-15 2:21 = AM, Markus=20 Vester wrote:
As announced before,=20 the German longwave broadcast transmissions on 153 = and 207=20 kHz (Deutschlandfunk) and 177 kHz (Deutschlandradio) will be = terminated with=20 the New Year 2015. Presumably mediumwave AM transmissions will = follow=20 one year later. It has been claimed that the continuation would be = too=20 costly, considering the relatively small number of AM=20 listeners.
 
Along with others, I think that = this is a sad=20 landmark in radio history, because
 
- AM radio is simple and = intuitive. The=20 concepts of AM transmission and reception are easy to = conceive,=20 even by a child. And it's motivating to play with it. In a few = years, the=20 kids can still build a diode receiver, but listening to = the small=20 surrogate oscillator Daddy has hidden behind the sofa will surely = not be the=20 same thing!
 
Then try to explain digital audio = broadcasting=20 to your grandson, all the way from end-to-end (microphone to = speaker. I even=20 have strong doubts that there is a single expert = person now who=20 understands the whole chain. Every engineer is supposed to be = working on the=20 details of a small subpart, knows little more than he "needs to = know",=20 and communication is done by formal processes and requirement=20 specifications. Of course this is a general trend in = industry, but I=20 don't think it is very desirable. 
 
- AM is linear. Listening to 153 kHz in the evening hours, faint = Algerian music=20 can be heard in the background. When I was young I was fascinated by = those=20 distant sounds, and it probably contributed strongly to my later = interest in=20 "DX". You can actually hear that the radio waves have come a long = way,=20 experience selective fading, and solar effects, or subtle=20 ionospheric effects like Luxembourg crossmodulation. Modern = digital=20 radio considers all this undesirable interference - what = you get=20 is either perfect mp3 stereo, or nothing at all.
 
- AM is a historic legacy. = Especially on=20 longwave, each transmitter and antenna coupler is a unique=20 installation, and the antennas are impressive monuments. SAQ is a = good=20 example: While it's no longer needed for transatlantic=20 communication, it's still being kept alive as=20 an educative and fascinating world heritage. Why not keep = at least=20 one large LF broadcast transmitter?
 
- LF and MF radio = is efficient. The=20 half-megawatt Donebach transmitter probably consumes a million Euros = worth=20 of energy per year, and in addition, there is antenna and=20 transmitter maintenance to be paid for. But it provides gapless = service=20 across many million square kilometers. Similar coverage with = DAB will=20 probably require a thousand or more digital transmitters, which in = total may=20 well consume a higher amount of power and secondary costs. = One=20 difficulty about keeping LF transmitters alive may actually be there = are so=20 few of them - as most engineers seem to be working on software = and=20 silicon chip-level hardware, it may become hard to make spare parts = and=20 find experienced service people for high-voltage RF in the=20 future.
 
- Radio helps to protect against = spectrum=20 pollution. Members of the LF group are only too aware of the = inflation of=20 inadequately filtered SMPS power supplies, "dirty" ADSL and PLC=20 communication over unshielded copper lines, and upcoming=20 threats like inductive e-car charging devices. Currently there=20 are still EMC regulations in place which at least provide=20 some limit on radiated and conducted interference above 150 = kHz. But=20 when there are no more AM broadcast listeners, why should anyone = invest=20 effort to protect that part of spectrum against local interference? = The=20 situation for those few crazy LF enthusiasts who enjoy digging down = to the=20 noise floor may soon become comparable to that of backyard = astronomers in an=20 urban environment - ie plain frustrating.
 
End of rant...
 
Anyway, all the best for the new=20 year,
 
Markus (DF6NM)
 

No virus found in = this=20 message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.5577 / = Virus=20 Database: 4257/8841 - Release Date: = 12/30/14



--=20
73, Ric   VK7RO
------=_NextPart_000_0131_01D0253B.8B95E8A0--