Return-Path: X-Spam-DCC: paranoid 1290; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL, HTML_MESSAGE,RATWARE_GECKO_BUILD autolearn=no version=3.1.3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by paranoid.lipkowski.org (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id t9HNLG9U022454 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 2015 01:21:16 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Znajn-0005xg-6a for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 18 Oct 2015 00:18:07 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Znajm-0005xQ-1W for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 18 Oct 2015 00:18:06 +0100 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1Znaim-00034U-Ei for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 18 Oct 2015 00:18:04 +0100 Received: from dovecot03.posteo.de (dovecot03.posteo.de [172.16.0.13]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2327720AF3 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 2015 01:16:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail.posteo.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dovecot03.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3ndgGT0LGlz5vMs for ; Sun, 18 Oct 2015 01:16:49 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <5622D6E0.5000402@posteo.de> Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 01:16:48 +0200 From: DK7FC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; de; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB1B227339@servigilant.vigilant.local>,<56221C58.8010200@posteo.de> <579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB1B227788@servigilant.vigilant.local>,<56226EED.7020302@posteo.de> <579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB1B227D52@servigilant.vigilant.local> In-Reply-To: <579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB1B227D52@servigilant.vigilant.local> X-Scan-Signature: 0d736f1bb27e176389dfa581410a434b Subject: Re: LF: EA5DOM going vertical Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------030608050002080202010709" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 10.1.3.10 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4465 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030608050002080202010709 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Luis, Am 18.10.2015 00:49, schrieb VIGILANT Luis Fernández: > Hi Stefan > > Yes. I have already doubled the voltage rate of the output filter. It > was the second thing that > failed when transmitting with the loop. Oh, very strange. That cannot happen when an antenna system is matched properly, whatever antenna is used. > Output ferrite transformer is also cooled with fan and > small aluminium heatshink. Temptation to keep transmitting is too > strong ! ;-) The output transformer inside the PA or do you have an external one? > > Fortunately, even severy mismatched, the vertical is stable as a rock. Yes, because it is not resonanted yet :-) > The loop need continous > watching because capacitors heat and mismatch drifts from on Tx to the > next one. A real hell ! Hm, with my small loop that i used for TXing, there were heat problems too. But the drifting working points limits itselfe, due to the temperature coeffcient of the capacitor. It just runs out of resonance which reduces the voltage, current and temperature to an acceptable value. > It is just what you predicted :-) > > Of course I need help from you all to match the PA. I have finished > the coil this afternoon > 120 turns of 0.9mm enameled copper over 25cm composite pipe. 25 cm is a good choice. > The plan is not to use taps > but use a ferrite transformer with taps to match. That is a good decision too. But you will need a variometer part inside the coil, maybe 15 turns on a 8cm diameter tube. Later you won't need taps on the transformer. Once you have found the right ratio of turns, it will not change dramatically. However the resonance may be quite sharp because you need much L at such a short antenna. > I have also an small variometer which can be > added > > I wonder if the 490pF vacuum variable capacitor can be of use at any > point in the matching No, not really. All you need is the variometer and the transformer. You already found the resonance of the loop so i think you will find it on the vertical too. Do not use SWR meters, they are sub-optimal on LF/MF i find. BTW i recommend to use separate primary and secondary windings on the transformer to decouple the system. This also helps to avoid QRM/TVI to others. A correctly wound transformer is cold, even at 100W passing through it. Otherwise it saturates! Then you need more turns on the primary side! This is a first thing that you could check by winding a 1:1 transformer and see if it stays cool when running full power into a dummy load for a few minutes. I guess your loss resistance could be in the range of 50 Ohm, so you may need a 1:1.4 winding ratio. You will see... 73, Stefan > > Hope to get it installed soon > > 73 de Luis > EA5DOM > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *De:* owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] en nombre de DK7FC > [selberdenken@posteo.de] > *Enviado:* sábado, 17 de octubre de 2015 17:53 > *Para:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Asunto:* Re: LF: EA5DOM going vertical > > Hi Luis, > > Be careful with running a mismatched PA. It may not blow up the FETs > but maybe a C in the output filter. And the filter will not work very > well too. > I guess you know how to match the antenna to the PA. Or do you need > some advice and suggestions? > 159V is nothing, it could be 20 dB more, easily. So i'm looking > forward to your loaded antenna :-) > > 73, Stefan > > Am 17.10.2015 16:33, schrieb VIGILANT Luis Fernández: >> Thank you Stefan :-) >> >> This is being posible with the help of many friends found here in the >> reflector, like you >> >> This morning I have added the loop to the ground side of the vertical >> (dipole). No difference >> in the loading. Still mismatched. The PA rms out is 159V and input >> power 9A@12V >> That should be 62V rms over a 50Ohm load. Anyway much better and less >> stressing >> working conditions that a high Q loop and can run WSPRS every 8 >> minutes without problems >> >> For the QRSS-3 QSO can be tomorrow sunday evening. Today I'll be out >> and just running WSPR >> >> What a coincidence ! It will also be my first QSO with DL on this >> band. In fact, will be my first QSO >> in this band ! :) >> >> No pictures about the arrangement because there is no arrangement. >> Just the vertical antenna >> The radial go down inside the building trought a ventilation pipe. >> Let's see tonight if the loop around >> the base of the vertical antenna makes some difference and can reach >> LA ! >> >> 73 de Luis >> EA5DOM >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *De:* owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >> [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] en nombre de DK7FC >> [selberdenken@posteo.de] >> *Enviado:* sábado, 17 de octubre de 2015 12:00 >> *Para:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >> *Asunto:* Re: LF: EA5DOM going vertical >> >> Hi Luis, >> >> My congrats!!! >> This is a very good result for an unloaded 10m vertical antenna! >> The coil will make a big difference, a few 10 dB i expect, although >> this is hard to imagine since your reports are very good already. >> >> Do you like to try a QRSS-3 (or DFCW) QSO? :-) Would be my first on >> that band to EA. >> >> 73, Stefan >> >> PS: Show us some photos of the new arrangement. >> >> 19 spots: >> >> Timestamp Call MHz SNR Drift Grid Pwr Reporter RGrid km az >> 2015-10-16 23:40 EA5DOM 0.475791 -30 0 IM98wn 0.05 >> DG3LV JO53gv 1887 22 >> 2015-10-17 01:56 EA5DOM 0.475789 -29 0 IM98wn 0.05 >> PI4THT JO32kf 1613 17 >> 2015-10-16 20:24 EA5DOM 0.475790 -25 0 IM98wn 0.05 >> DH5RAE JN68qv 1576 39 >> 2015-10-17 00:24 EA5DOM 0.475788 -29 0 IM98wn 0.05 >> DJ0ABR JN68nt 1556 39 >> 2015-10-16 23:40 EA5DOM 0.475789 -29 0 IM98wn 0.05 >> DF6MK JN68ik 1505 39 >> 2015-10-16 20:40 EA5DOM 0.475789 -28 0 IM98wn 0.05 >> PA0RDT JO11tm 1470 10 >> 2015-10-17 03:32 EA5DOM 0.475790 -24 0 IM98wn 0.05 >> G8HUH IO81mg 1430 352 >> 2015-10-17 01:56 EA5DOM 0.475789 -33 0 IM98wn 0.05 >> G3XKR IO70ux 1419 348 >> 2015-10-17 00:08 EA5DOM 0.475791 -20 0 IM98wn 0.05 >> DK7FC/P JN49ik 1398 27 >> 2015-10-17 00:32 EA5DOM 0.475791 -30 0 IM98wn 0.05 >> DK7FC JN49ik 1398 27 >> 2015-10-16 23:24 EA5DOM 0.475789 -28 0 IM98wn 0.05 >> DL6RCN JN58kg 1395 36 >> 2015-10-17 02:00 EA5DOM 0.475789 -25 0 IM98wn 0.05 >> F6CNI JN19qb 1200 12 >> 2015-10-17 04:48 EA5DOM 0.475790 -29 0 IM98wn 0.05 >> F4HBT JN08qx 1164 5 >> 2015-10-16 22:32 EA5DOM 0.475789 -30 0 IM98wn 0.05 >> F6GEX IN97na 942 357 >> 2015-10-17 02:56 EA5DOM 0.475791 -29 0 IM98wn 0.05 >> F1AFJ JN06ht 919 4 >> 2015-10-17 02:00 EA5DOM 0.475789 -29 0 IM98wn 0.05 >> F5OZF IN94su 700 358 >> 2015-10-17 03:24 EA5DOM 0.475792 -18 0 IM98wn 0.05 >> EA2HB IN93ah 550 344 >> 2015-10-17 00:00 EA5DOM 0.475789 -25 0 IM98wn 0.05 >> EB3FRN JN01mc 300 19 >> 2015-10-17 05:48 EA5DOM 0.475789 +4 0 IM98wn 0.05 >> EA5DOM-1 IM98xn 7 90 >> >> >> >> Am 17.10.2015 00:28, schrieb VIGILANT Luis Fernández: >>> New experiment ongoing tonight :-) >>> >>> Just the 10,25m vertical with one vertical radial about 11m long >>> hanging down >>> A vertical dipole, really >>> >>> No coil, no adaptation. Have used this with the bare U3 and thought >>> it would not be >>> possible to use the PA due to mismatch. But tried .... and it is not >>> so bad :-O >>> >>> Reports from EU stations show that the vertical radiates much better >>> Dx signal >>> than the horizontal loop, even counting on the crude feeding system used >>> We all knew that. Just a confirmation ;-) >>> >>> Working in the coil this weekend >>> Keep tuned >>> >>> 73 de Luis >>> EA5DOM --------------030608050002080202010709 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Luis,

Am 18.10.2015 00:49, schrieb VIGILANT Luis Fernández:
Hi Stefan

Yes. I have already doubled the voltage rate of the output filter. It was the second thing that
failed when transmitting with the loop.
Oh, very strange. That cannot happen when an antenna system is matched properly, whatever antenna is used.
Output ferrite transformer is also cooled with fan and
small aluminium heatshink. Temptation to keep transmitting is too strong ! ;-)
The output transformer inside the PA or do you have an external one?

Fortunately, even severy mismatched, the vertical is stable as a rock.
Yes, because it is not resonanted yet :-)
The loop need continous
watching because capacitors heat and mismatch drifts from on Tx to the next one. A real hell !
Hm, with my small loop that i used for TXing, there were heat problems too. But the drifting working points limits itselfe, due to the temperature coeffcient of the capacitor. It just runs out of resonance which reduces the voltage, current and temperature to an acceptable value.
It is just what you predicted  :-) 

Of course I need help from you all to match the PA. I have finished the coil this afternoon
120 turns of 0.9mm enameled copper over 25cm composite pipe.
25 cm is a good choice.
The plan is not to use taps
but use a ferrite transformer with taps to match.
That is a good decision too. But you will need a variometer part inside the coil, maybe 15 turns on a 8cm diameter tube.
Later you won't need taps on the transformer. Once you have found the right ratio of turns, it will not change dramatically. However the resonance may be quite sharp because you need much L at such a short antenna.
I have also an small variometer which can be
added

I wonder if the 490pF vacuum variable capacitor can be of use at any point in the matching
No, not really. All you need is the variometer and the transformer.
You already found the resonance of the loop so i think you will find it on the vertical too.
Do not use SWR meters, they are sub-optimal on LF/MF i find.
BTW i recommend to use separate primary and secondary windings on the transformer to decouple the system. This also helps to avoid QRM/TVI to others. A correctly wound transformer is cold, even at 100W passing through it. Otherwise it saturates! Then you need more turns on the primary side! This is a first thing that you could check by winding a 1:1 transformer and see if it stays cool when running full power into a dummy load for a few minutes.
I guess your loss resistance could be in the range of 50 Ohm, so you may need a 1:1.4 winding ratio.
You will see...

73, Stefan


Hope to get it installed soon

73 de Luis
EA5DOM
De: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] en nombre de DK7FC [selberdenken@posteo.de]
Enviado: sábado, 17 de octubre de 2015 17:53
Para: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Asunto: Re: LF: EA5DOM going vertical

Hi Luis,

Be careful with running a mismatched PA. It may not blow up the FETs but maybe a C in the output filter. And the filter will not work very well too.
I guess you know how to match the antenna to the PA. Or do you need some advice and suggestions?
159V is nothing, it could be 20 dB more, easily. So i'm looking forward to your loaded antenna :-)

73, Stefan

Am 17.10.2015 16:33, schrieb VIGILANT Luis Fernández:
Thank you Stefan :-)

This is being posible with the help of many friends found here in the reflector, like you

This morning I have added the loop to the ground side of the vertical (dipole). No difference
in the loading. Still mismatched. The PA rms out is 159V and input power 9A@12V
That should be 62V rms over a 50Ohm load. Anyway much better and less stressing
working conditions that a high Q loop and can run WSPRS every 8 minutes without problems

For the QRSS-3 QSO can be tomorrow sunday evening. Today I'll be out and just running WSPR

What a coincidence ! It will also be my first QSO with DL on this band. In fact, will be my first QSO
in this band ! :)

No pictures about the arrangement because there is no arrangement. Just the vertical antenna
The radial go down inside the building trought a ventilation pipe. Let's see tonight if the loop around
the base of the vertical antenna makes some difference and can reach LA ! 

73 de Luis
EA5DOM
De: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] en nombre de DK7FC [selberdenken@posteo.de]
Enviado: sábado, 17 de octubre de 2015 12:00
Para: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Asunto: Re: LF: EA5DOM going vertical

Hi Luis,

My congrats!!!
This is a very good result for an unloaded 10m vertical antenna!
The coil will make a big difference, a few 10 dB i expect, although this is hard to imagine since your reports are very good already.

Do you like to try a QRSS-3 (or DFCW) QSO? :-) Would be my first on that band to EA.

73, Stefan

PS: Show us some photos of the new arrangement.

19 spots:

Timestamp Call MHz SNR Drift Grid Pwr Reporter RGrid km az
 2015-10-16 23:40   EA5DOM   0.475791   -30   0   IM98wn   0.05   DG3LV   JO53gv   1887   22 
 2015-10-17 01:56   EA5DOM   0.475789   -29   0   IM98wn   0.05   PI4THT   JO32kf   1613   17 
 2015-10-16 20:24   EA5DOM   0.475790   -25   0   IM98wn   0.05   DH5RAE   JN68qv   1576   39 
 2015-10-17 00:24   EA5DOM   0.475788   -29   0   IM98wn   0.05   DJ0ABR   JN68nt   1556   39 
 2015-10-16 23:40   EA5DOM   0.475789   -29   0   IM98wn   0.05   DF6MK   JN68ik   1505   39 
 2015-10-16 20:40   EA5DOM   0.475789   -28   0   IM98wn   0.05   PA0RDT   JO11tm   1470   10 
 2015-10-17 03:32   EA5DOM   0.475790   -24   0   IM98wn   0.05   G8HUH   IO81mg   1430   352 
 2015-10-17 01:56   EA5DOM   0.475789   -33   0   IM98wn   0.05   G3XKR   IO70ux   1419   348 
 2015-10-17 00:08   EA5DOM   0.475791   -20   0   IM98wn   0.05   DK7FC/P   JN49ik   1398   27 
 2015-10-17 00:32   EA5DOM   0.475791   -30   0   IM98wn   0.05   DK7FC   JN49ik   1398   27 
 2015-10-16 23:24   EA5DOM   0.475789   -28   0   IM98wn   0.05   DL6RCN   JN58kg   1395   36 
 2015-10-17 02:00   EA5DOM   0.475789   -25   0   IM98wn   0.05   F6CNI   JN19qb   1200   12 
 2015-10-17 04:48   EA5DOM   0.475790   -29   0   IM98wn   0.05   F4HBT   JN08qx   1164   5 
 2015-10-16 22:32   EA5DOM   0.475789   -30   0   IM98wn   0.05   F6GEX   IN97na   942   357 
 2015-10-17 02:56   EA5DOM   0.475791   -29   0   IM98wn   0.05   F1AFJ   JN06ht   919   4 
 2015-10-17 02:00   EA5DOM   0.475789   -29   0   IM98wn   0.05   F5OZF   IN94su   700   358 
 2015-10-17 03:24   EA5DOM   0.475792   -18   0   IM98wn   0.05   EA2HB   IN93ah   550   344 
 2015-10-17 00:00   EA5DOM   0.475789   -25   0   IM98wn   0.05   EB3FRN   JN01mc   300   19 
 2015-10-17 05:48   EA5DOM   0.475789   +4   0   IM98wn   0.05   EA5DOM-1   IM98xn   7   90 


Am 17.10.2015 00:28, schrieb VIGILANT Luis Fernández:
New experiment ongoing tonight :-)

Just the 10,25m vertical with one vertical radial about 11m long hanging down
A vertical dipole, really

No coil, no adaptation. Have used this with the bare U3 and thought it would not be
possible to use the PA due to mismatch. But tried .... and it is not so bad :-O

Reports from EU stations show that the vertical radiates much better Dx signal
than the horizontal loop, even counting on the crude feeding system used
We all knew that. Just a confirmation ;-)

Working in the coil this weekend
Keep tuned 

73 de Luis
EA5DOM
--------------030608050002080202010709--