Return-Path: X-Spam-DCC: paranoid 1170; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.4 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL, FORGED_RCVD_HELO,HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE,RATWARE_GECKO_BUILD autolearn=no version=3.1.3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by paranoid.lipkowski.org (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id t83Jh5aJ024437 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2015 21:43:05 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1ZXaIr-00055m-9C for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2015 20:36:09 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1ZXaIq-00055d-QS for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2015 20:36:08 +0100 Received: from 74-86-36-27.lx-vs.net ([74.86.36.27] helo=mx1.lylix.net) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1ZXaHo-0001S4-G0 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2015 20:36:07 +0100 Received: from [192.168.0.100] (dynamic-acs-24-144-194-158.zoominternet.net [24.144.194.158]) (Authenticated sender: eric@lylix.net) by mx1.lylix.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2250A6C2E49 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2015 15:34:46 -0400 (EDT) X-DKIM-Result: Domain=no3m.net Result=Signature OK DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 mx1.lylix.net 2250A6C2E49 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=no3m.net; s=default; t=1441308886; bh=y5atXbW+pbfB1DEN22e1gNPPew8FotAIZPUkOSdzMfY=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Reply-To:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=mLv/bt5I8VXrzUDThUaMalXroFpX3uiXs/b2nTrvkKvSjn7KvK1ABSBsUYXmQJfJd /QlidkVUSUGL84W8skQq6R5ftIVBv6tOU3lDgj0WXqE3Yot0DUki6jLK2YMtk6JtyW IExTHE2Gr9L9ZKh8wTRQLpmH0TVLgd0zxQ+Jaeic= To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB1B1E00EE@servigilant.vigilant.local> <786771441303722@web14j.yandex.ru> From: Eric NO3M Message-ID: <55E8A0D5.2060906@no3m.net> Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 15:34:45 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: X-Scan-Signature: 39b95da199347a6a932fd03c8ef722b2 Subject: Re: LF: RE: Odd sunset captures Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------020202020807070600000105" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 10.1.3.10 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4033 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020202020807070600000105 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As Tobias correctly points out, the erroneous decode Mike experienced was a result of correlation with a previous, correctly decoded signal from DK7FC. This permits correlating partial data transmissions, such as when compound calls or XXNNxx grids are used that cannot be encoded in a single transmission. There should be a expiration on the hash-table, but apparently not, since it's probably been quite a while since Mike actually decoded transmissions from Stefan on 630M. This is not a correlation decode from a user created or Internet derived callsign list. The idea of correlating signals against a user created or Internet derived callsign list is silly in the context of what WSPR is intended for. WSPR is more or less a scientific instrument, for the purpose of acquiring propagation data. Sure, people use it for other agendas and get thrilled about deep decodes, but WSPR is not a player in the "how weak can we go" arms race. Using a call list table would skew data and in the context of propagation, fringe decodes (-30 and below) are more noise than indicative. OPERA and WSPR are like comparing apples and oranges. Is OPERA a serious propagation tool... maybe in some cases. Is there a historic database somewhere that one can download to perform propagation studies? 73 Eric NO3M / WG2XJM On 09/03/2015 02:33 PM, Graham wrote: > Of course Roman , can have funny wrong call's any data mode > will make those , more funny is people compare data decoding > with correlation detection and not realise why correlation has > lower s/n , and particularly hilarious is those who know > what's happening and don't tell anyone . > Opera only deploys dynamic on 477/136 , the HF to SHF are all > simply data decodes, where as the Magic Mode has mixed > correlation and decoding on all bands , which explains how it > survives Doppler spreads 3 times its b/w on 10 MHZ and even works > , some times on vhf .. mfsk can be correlated , just the same as > ook , the time locking has more to do with pattern matching, > than decoding data . > As some one pointed out , 'What ever colour the cat , as long as > it catches the mouse' just in this case , the cat's out of the > bag and it turns out , there are more than one in there . > G , ,) > > *From:* Roman > *Sent:* Thursday, September 03, 2015 7:08 PM > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Subject:* Re: LF: RE: Odd sunset captures > > Graham I rx too mny false and fantoms in OPERA for long 3 years. > As usual this is not real calls. > 03.09.2015, 19:20, "Graham" >: >> That's interesting Luis ..one those . the kings not >> wearing anything moment's jiji >> By the qrg 400k , this was a wspr 2 TX ? >> *So the only way Stefan's call sign could be recovered is >> from the look up table as part of a correlation process [ see >> other linking posts]* >> Its *IMPOSSIBLE* for Opera to produce such false *Decode * >> But if you mean *DYNAMIC Detection * , has Ghosts , that's true >> for any correlation system and the ghosts always take on real >> life forms >> However the Phantom , has provided a Time stamp *Ghost Buster * >> validation system . something wspr cannot as it already uses the >> web for time locking , oddly , accurate time is required for a >> correlation system ... >> People are not too sure of the difference between */Decode and >> Detection/* , but those who do , like the extra dB's one >> gives over the other >> As I noted previously >> */''no one minds a bit of the 'Old Jaspers' as long as its not >> take too seriously'' /* >> 6 meters is known as the Magic band , may be wspr should be >> the 'Magic' Mode >> 73-G, >> *From:* VIGILANT Luis Fernández >> *Sent:* Thursday, September 03, 2015 11:28 AM >> *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >> *Subject:* LF: RE: Odd sunset captures >> Hi Mike, MF >> From my records last night, DK7FC was transmiting in 06-16-26-36 ... >> periods, but not at 23:04 >> The locator shown in your decode is also wrong >> The closest frame to the time you decoded was at 23:06 >> 2306 -21 -1.2 0.475684 0 DK7FC JN49 30 >> Not only Opera has its ghost ! ;-) >> PS: I'm QRV again. Back from a 15 days vacation trip >> 73 de Luis >> EA5DOM >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *De:* owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >> >> [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >> ] *En nombre de *Michael Sapp >> *Enviado el:* jueves, 03 de septiembre de 2015 2:19 >> *Para:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >> ; lowfer@mailman.qth.net >> >> *Asunto:* LF: Odd sunset captures >> Hi All: I'm not sure what to think of this.... >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/xwnopmbl2fz5ye5/IMG_4537.JPG?dl=0 >> I have been experimenting with IF shifting my radio to get WG2XJM >> very strong signal 10 to 13 dB down the IF bandpass >> curve to improve weak signal reception of other stations when Eric is >> transmitting. Odd sunset partial captures appear >> to be transatlantic, but I am not sure about reality with this data. >> My EWE antenna was configured to favor a SE direction, but with >> 120 degree 3dB beam width pattern it covers the NE as well. Long >> distance transition zone propagation is a possibility, but I >> would be hesitant to claim it not having received correct grid square >> information...... >> 73, Mike wa3tts > -- > 73! > Roman, RW3ADB --------------020202020807070600000105 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As Tobias correctly points out, the erroneous decode Mike experienced was a result of correlation with a previous, correctly decoded signal from DK7FC.  This permits correlating partial data transmissions, such as when compound calls or XXNNxx grids are used that cannot be encoded in a single transmission.  There should be a expiration on the hash-table, but apparently not, since it's probably been quite a while since Mike actually decoded transmissions from Stefan on 630M.  This is not a correlation decode from a user created or Internet derived callsign list.

The idea of correlating signals against a user created or Internet derived callsign list is silly in the context of what WSPR is intended for.  WSPR is more or less a scientific instrument, for the purpose of acquiring propagation data.  Sure, people use it for other agendas and get thrilled about deep decodes, but WSPR is not a player in the "how weak can we go" arms race.  Using a call list table would skew data and in the context of propagation, fringe decodes (-30 and below) are more noise than indicative.

OPERA and WSPR are like comparing apples and oranges.   Is OPERA a serious propagation tool... maybe in some cases.  Is there a historic database somewhere that one can download to perform propagation studies?

73 Eric NO3M / WG2XJM

On 09/03/2015 02:33 PM, Graham wrote:
Of course  Roman ,  can have  funny  wrong  call's  any data  mode  will  make those ,  more  funny  is  people  compare   data decoding  with  correlation detection  and  not  realise why   correlation has  lower   s/n  , and particularly  hilarious  is  those  who  know  what's  happening  and don't  tell  anyone .
 
Opera only  deploys  dynamic  on  477/136 , the  HF to SHF  are all  simply  data  decodes, where  as  the  Magic Mode has  mixed  correlation  and  decoding  on all  bands , which  explains  how it  survives  Doppler spreads  3 times  its  b/w  on 10 MHZ and even  works , some times  on vhf ..  mfsk can be correlated  , just the  same as  ook  ,   the  time  locking  has more to do  with  pattern  matching, than  decoding  data .
 
As some one  pointed out ,  'What ever colour the  cat , as long as  it  catches  the  mouse'  just in this  case , the  cat's  out of the bag and  it  turns out , there  are  more than  one  in there .
 
G , ,)
 
 
 
 

From: Roman
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2015 7:08 PM
Subject: Re: LF: RE: Odd sunset captures

Graham I rx too mny false and fantoms in OPERA for long 3 years.
As usual this is not real calls.
 
 
03.09.2015, 19:20, "Graham" <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk>:
That's  interesting  Luis ..one  those  . the  kings  not  wearing  anything   moment's  jiji
 
By the  qrg 400k  , this  was a  wspr  2  TX ?
 
So the  only  way  Stefan's  call  sign  could be  recovered   is from the  look  up  table as  part of a  correlation  process [ see other  linking posts]
 
Its  IMPOSSIBLE   for  Opera  to  produce  such false  Decode 
 
But if you  mean  DYNAMIC Detection  , has  Ghosts ,  that's  true for  any  correlation  system   and the  ghosts always  take on real life  forms 
 
However the  Phantom , has  provided  a  Time  stamp   Ghost  Buster  validation  system  . something  wspr cannot as it  already uses the  web  for  time  locking , oddly , accurate  time is required for  a  correlation  system ...
 
People  are  not  too  sure  of the  difference  between  Decode  and Detection  ,    but those  who do , like the  extra  dB's one  gives  over the  other 
 
As I  noted  previously 
 
''no  one minds a  bit of the   'Old Jaspers'  as  long as its not take too  seriously''
 
6 meters  is  known as the  Magic  band ,  may be  wspr  should be   the  'Magic'   Mode 
 
73-G,
 
 
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2015 11:28 AM
Subject: LF: RE: Odd sunset captures
 
Hi Mike, MF
 
From my records last night, DK7FC was transmiting in 06-16-26-36 ... periods, but not at 23:04
The locator shown in your decode is also wrong
 
The closest frame to the time you decoded was at 23:06
2306 -21 -1.2 0.475684 0 DK7FC JN49 30
 
Not only Opera has its ghost ! ;-)
 
PS: I'm QRV again. Back from a 15 days vacation trip
 
73 de Luis
EA5DOM
 
De: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] En nombre de Michael Sapp
Enviado el: jueves, 03 de septiembre de 2015 2:19
Para: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; lowfer@mailman.qth.net
Asunto: LF: Odd sunset captures
 
Hi All: I'm not sure what to think of this....
 
 
I have been experimenting with IF shifting my radio to get WG2XJM very strong signal 10 to 13 dB down the IF bandpass
 
curve to improve weak signal reception of other stations when Eric is transmitting.  Odd sunset partial captures appear
 
to be transatlantic, but I am not sure about reality with this data. My EWE antenna was configured to favor a SE direction, but with
 
120 degree 3dB beam width pattern it covers the NE as well.   Long distance transition zone propagation is a possibility, but I
 
would be hesitant to claim it not having received correct grid square information......
 
73, Mike wa3tts
 
 
--
73!
Roman, RW3ADB
 

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