Return-Path: Received: from mtain-dc04.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-dc04.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.64.132]) by air-me08.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINME081-8bbc4d5a925d2aa; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 09:49:01 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-dc04.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 012C538000081; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 09:48:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1PpMBk-0005R0-Rf for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 14:47:36 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1PpMBj-0005Qr-Pp for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 14:47:35 +0000 Received: from nm2.bullet.mail.ukl.yahoo.com ([217.146.183.219]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1PpMBj-0006pD-Gd for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 14:47:35 +0000 Received: from [217.146.183.182] by nm2.bullet.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Feb 2011 14:47:28 -0000 Received: from [217.146.183.173] by tm13.bullet.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Feb 2011 14:47:28 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1014.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Feb 2011 14:47:28 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 769326.25570.bm@omp1014.mail.ukl.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 84998 invoked by uid 60001); 15 Feb 2011 14:47:28 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.co.uk; s=s1024; t=1297781248; bh=RmDa44iF2CcquTUOXhcNHfwvDd7ZLd4694n1C3aUmFE=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=iJzKjJHl+8y7vb7S38H+d5PfUnfIO7ClnombhykbeDqzNSYUTadeGkm/nDR1XqqA+DMiayT3r1MuLcgWjUClXXuih+7ohNHKMGomXRvlLnW0aTAZnzk1bt1Op3cL6bcgAtXbOLCMc2tMxEf66gGwa6tvwfzGxMAvBcF1RgVC9Aw= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=ar11TzDJxVSVpiw5a/Wrr1z1YeQn45BgHnCmpHfOugKFosU7sBSHZSTIp9ScxwdGeusfbhfsyyJpA4GEWBREF4SMmK7yo/y/FVNHiDGnGXR8pE1r3jqeeUkbpVgN4/ROTsVFeX3Ufo15ZFvmU4fkX1/xpQZpUABEJHHId9h8VNU=; Message-ID: <558539.83618.qm@web28105.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: TebVl8oVM1mowcfT5bOOZyPCWO9X7TMBIWg5DhrVNg9kX0R QNJjepTKDEYzuBQUtHyvuAkcIOwmAbOakUcNNPm0NPvKbys.Gh7qUpsM7ZGU 1bJThZgDSmXQyyelTaCGuGS9Pk5NX_gdzkNRDuPTUidZ_xvs4Tyjs8zpt0Wj WQwdjNaumm9xlM5kqIJG9vzamIATgPQGyMyhszITmZdS72jT5Z.SbLnowkd8 53MADoHpEQ05IGKPOM_O4an1XIrDAHXB8GbAlnf9U5OYKyqMaHBnSnYd1SGn NT3LzyK2FJLbjyDHVc5.Rm3rEqYeGCZUux08xki3jsQ-- Received: from [86.156.201.240] by web28105.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 14:47:28 GMT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/555 YahooMailWebService/0.8.108.291010 References: <6AD920D46A4546ECB1E0FF76E739307C@AGB> <002d01cbcd02$77e22890$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf>,<443580.35039.qm@web28106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 14:47:28 +0000 (GMT) From: M0FMT To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 DomainKey-Status: good (testing) Subject: LF: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFJlOiBMRjogUmU6IFJFOiBBbGlnbm1lbnQgb2YgIChOYXJyb3cgQmFu?= =?utf-8?B?ZCkgREFUQSAgYW5kICBXU1BSICBmcmVxdWVuY3nigJlzIG9uIHRoZSAgNTAw?= =?utf-8?B?IEtIeiAgYmFuZC4=?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-393101897-1297781248=:83618" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=5.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-d017.1 ; domain : yahoo.co.uk DKIM : fail x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d40844d5a925b24b8 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none --0-393101897-1297781248=:83618 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well Rik I am glad you used the word "Over regulation" if you are only tal= king=20 about a sensible and locally agreed arrangement like me taking my low-powe= r=20 beacon off when requested then I am not against it (The fact I am identifi= able=20 by virtue of CW means I can be contacted to say, turn it off). Your comments about other countries having the same band is well taken. I= =20 thought DL's could set up camp anywhere but had to be fixed frequency and= LA ,=20 OZ had oodles of spectrum to VFO around.=20 At least in the Wild West every body had a gun!=C2=A0 I hope you understand I am just putting the counter view to a carve up of= =20 500kc/s it looked like a land grab to me very reminiscent to the Wild West= ! =C2=A073 es GL petefmt=20 ________________________________ From: Rik Strobbe To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" Sent: Tue, 15 February, 2011 14:14:53 Subject: RE: Re: LF: Re: RE: Alignment of (Narrow Band) DATA and WSPR=20 frequency=E2=80=99s on the 500 KHz band. Pete, I agree that there is no need for strickt regulation (and certainly no=20 overregulation).=20 But some agreements to "live and let live" will help. At least to me it ma= kes=20 sense that automated operations happen at the band edges (as it is=C2=A0do= ne now most=20 of the time).=20 I am afraid that the "wild west" will lead to will lead to wild west situa= tions=20 (where often a lot of fighting is involved). Regarding 501-504kHz: this is certainly not UK only. Also ON, PA, OK and= EA are=20 limited to this band.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 73, Rik=C2=A0 ON7YD - OR7T ________________________________ Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.or= g]=20 namens M0FMT [m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk] Verzonden: dinsdag 15 februari 2011 14:23 Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Onderwerp: LF: Re: LF: Re: RE: Alignment of (Narrow Band) DATA and WSPR=20 frequency=E2=80=99s on the 500 KHz band. I operate a low power Beacon on 501.15kc/s so=C2=A0I bag that frequency no= w. I have=20 already been shooed=C2=A0off 500 at week ends, but to bag the frequencies= I guess it=20 needs to stay on 24/7. I also=C2=A0some times operate at the upper band ed= ge so=C2=A0I bag=20 that frequency also. I will=C2=A0be issuing a list of my favourite frequen= cies to=20 bagsy them as well shortly. Rik .. EU station have plenty of channels outside the UK 501 / 504 to play= on. This is the RSGB style channelisation of 2/70 in the early 70's all over= again.=20 IMHO this band should be like the Wild West no, "no go" areas. 73 es GL petefmt=20 ________________________________ From: mal hamilton To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sent: Tue, 15 February, 2011 11:21:19 Subject: LF: Re: RE: Alignment of (Narrow Band) DATA and WSPR frequency=E2= =80=99s on the=20 500 KHz band. This seems a sensible approach. Time division. Keep to the same freq in ti= me=20 slots. g3kev ----- Original Message -----=20 >From: Rik Strobbe=20 >To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 >Cc: Joe Taylor=20 >Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 7:23 AM >Subject: LF: RE: Alignment of (Narrow Band) DATA and WSPR frequency=E2=80= =99s on the 500=20 >KHz band. > > >Hello Graham, >=C2=A0 >I would suggest to have all digital modes as close as possible to the ban= d=20 >edges, leaving the band centre for CW. >For WSPR there=C2=A0are currently=C2=A02 segments: one for EU stations to= transmit on=20 >(503.9kHz +/- 100Hz) and one NA stations to transmit on (501.1kHz +/- 100= Hz) to=20 >avoid local QRM (or better said RX overload).=20 > >So 503.7kHz +/- 100Hz and/or 501.3kHz +/- 100Hz for other digimodes ? >It would be possible to have a single data segment for EU and NA it we go= from=20 >frequency division to time division: if all EU stations would transmit in= the=20 >xx:00-xx:02, xx:04-xx:06, xx:08-xx:10 ... time slots and all NA stations= in the=20 >xx:02-xx:04, xx:06-xx-08 ... time slots they can use the same frequency= without=20 >local QRM. >But this would require a minor chang in the WSPR software (and maybe also= other=20 >software). > >73, Rik=C2=A0 ON7YD - OR7T > > ________________________________ Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.or= g]=20 namens Graham [g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk] >Verzonden: dinsdag 15 februari 2011 2:20 >Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >CC: Joe Taylor >Onderwerp: LF: Alignment of (Narrow Band) DATA and WSPR frequency=E2=80= =99s on the 500=20 >KHz band. > > >Alignment of =C2=A0(Narrow Band) DATA=C2=A0and =C2=A0WSPR=C2=A0 frequency= =E2=80=99s on the=C2=A0 500 KHz=C2=A0 band. >=C2=A0 >The=C2=A0 original wspr frequency =C2=A0=C2=A0502.4=C2=A0 was=C2=A0 defin= ed=C2=A0 as the=C2=A0 working=C2=A0 frequency=C2=A0=20 >to=C2=A0 utilise the=C2=A0 =E2=80=98clean=E2=80=99 area=C2=A0 just under= the=C2=A0 504=C2=A0 harmonic, whilst avoiding=20 >the=C2=A0 various=C2=A0 beacons=C2=A0 running=C2=A0 across=C2=A0 the=C2= =A0 501/504=C2=A0 band at the=C2=A0 time.=20 >However, time has moved on and there are now numerous =E2=80=98dial setti= ng=E2=80=99s=E2=80=99 in use=20 >both sides of the Atlantic. >=C2=A0 >Due to=C2=A0 an apparent =C2=A0increase=C2=A0 in the=C2=A0 side band=C2= =A0 noise=C2=A0 from the=C2=A0 504 signal ,=20 >possibly by=C2=A0 enhanced=C2=A0 propagation , the=C2=A0 ROS=C2=A0 MF =C2= =A0(100 hz b/w) working=C2=A0=20 >frequency is=C2=A0 to be re defined as=C2=A0 500=C2=A0 USBdial=C2=A0 set= =C2=A0 giving a=C2=A0 centre=C2=A0 carrier=C2=A0=20 >frequency of 501.500 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 >Due=C2=A0 to=C2=A0 Ae=C2=A0 bandwidth and=C2=A0 perhaps =C2=A0alignment= =C2=A0 with=C2=A0 =C2=A0other=C2=A0 =C2=A0band=E2=80=99s, =C2=A0I=20 >=C2=A0=C2=A0would=C2=A0 suggest the original WSPR =C2=A0502.4K is=C2=A0= replaced=C2=A0 with the=C2=A0 lower=20 >frequency =C2=A0of=C2=A0 495.9K , thus=C2=A0 restoring the=C2=A0 System= =E2=80=99s=C2=A0 coverage and=C2=A0=20 >facilitating=C2=A0 changes=C2=A0 of mode etc within a=C2=A0 narrow bandwi= dth.=20 > >=C2=A0 >I don=E2=80=99t =C2=A0see=C2=A0 this=C2=A0 detracting=C2=A0 from the moni= toring=C2=A0 of spot=C2=A0 frequency=C2=A0=20 >beacons=C2=A0 over 505Khz , but more=C2=A0 appropriate=C2=A0=C2=A0 to=C2= =A0 transmitting=C2=A0 stations ,=20 >which=C2=A0 by the=C2=A0 nature of the=C2=A0 antenna arrays are=C2=A0 not= =C2=A0 able=C2=A0 comfortably=C2=A0 to=C2=A0=20 >qsy=C2=A0 from=C2=A0 top=C2=A0 to=C2=A0 bottom of the=C2=A0 band without= =C2=A0 re-tuning, not=C2=A0 always a=C2=A0=20 >simple=C2=A0 option. >=C2=A0 >Comments=C2=A0 or=C2=A0 suggestions please ?. >=C2=A0 >Graham >G0NBD >=C2=A0 > > =20 --0-393101897-1297781248=:83618 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well Rik I am glad you used the word "Over regulation" if you are onl= y talking about a sensible and locally agreed arrangement like me taking= my low-power beacon off when requested then I am not against it (The fact= I am identifiable by virtue of CW means I can be contacted to say, turn= it off).
 
Your comments about other countries having the same band is well take= n. I thought DL's could set up camp anywhere but had to be fixed frequency= and LA , OZ had oodles of spectrum to VFO around.
 
At least in the Wild West every body had a gun! 
 
I hope you understand I am just putting the counter view to a carve= up of 500kc/s it looked like a land grab to me very reminiscent to the Wi= ld West!
 
73 es GL petefmt=20


From: Rik Strobbe <Rik.= Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be>
To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org&g= t;
Sent: Tue, 15 Februa= ry, 2011 14:14:53
Subject:<= /B> RE: Re: LF: Re: RE: Alignment of (Narrow Band) DATA and WSPR frequency= =E2=80=99s on the 500 KHz band.

Pete,
 
I agree that there is no need for strickt regulation (and certainly= no overregulation).
But some agreements to "live and let live" will help. At least to me= it makes sense that automated operations happen at the band edges (as it= is done now most of the time).
I am afraid that the "wild west" will lead to will lead to wild west= situations (where often a lot of fighting is involved).
Regarding 501-= 504kHz: this is certainly not UK only. Also ON, PA, OK and EA are limited= to this band. 
 
73, Rik  ON7YD - OR7T
 
Van: owner-rsgb_lf_gro= up@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens M0FMT [m0fmt= @yahoo.co.uk]
Verzonden: dinsdag 15 februari 2011 14:23
Aa= n: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Onderwerp: LF: Re: LF: Re:= RE: Alignment of (Narrow Band) DATA and WSPR frequency=E2=80=99s on the= 500 KHz band.

I operate a low power Beacon on 501.15kc/s so I bag that frequen= cy now. I have already been shooed off 500 at week ends, but to bag= the frequencies I guess it needs to stay on 24/7. I also some times= operate at the upper band edge so I bag that frequency also. I will&= nbsp;be issuing a list of my favourite frequencies to bagsy them as well= shortly.
 
Rik .. EU station have plenty of channels outside the UK 501 / 504 to= play on.
 
This is the RSGB style channelisation of 2/70 in the early 70's all= over again. IMHO this band should be like the Wild West no, "no go" areas= .
 
73 es GL petefmt=20


From: mal hamilton <g3k= evmal@talktalk.net>
To:<= /B> rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
S= ent: Tue, 15 February, 2011 11:21:19
Subject: LF: Re: RE: Alignment of (Narrow Band)= DATA and WSPR frequency=E2=80=99s on the 500 KHz band.

This seems a sensible approach. Time division. Kee= p to the same freq in time slots.
g3kev
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 7:= 23 AM
Subject: LF: RE: Alignment of (Narr= ow Band) DATA and WSPR frequency=E2=80=99s on the 500 KHz band.

Hello Graham,
 
I would suggest to have all digital mode= s as close as possible to the band edges, leaving the band centre for CW.<= /FONT>
For WSPR there are currently 2= segments: one for EU stations to transmit on (503.9kHz +/- 100Hz) and one= NA stations to transmit on (501.1kHz +/- 100Hz) to avoid local QRM (or be= tter said RX overload).
So 503.7kHz +/- 100Hz and/or 501.3kHz +/= - 100Hz for other digimodes ?
It would be possible to have a single da= ta segment for EU and NA it we go from frequency division to time division= : if all EU stations would transmit in the xx:00-xx:02, xx:04-xx:06, xx:08= -xx:10 ... time slots and all NA stations in the xx:02-xx:04, xx:06-xx-08= ... time slots they can use the same frequency without local QRM.<= /DIV>
But this would require a minor chang in= the WSPR software (and maybe also other software).
 
73, Rik  ON7YD - OR7T
 
Van: owner-rsgb_lf_gro= up@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens Graham [g8fz= k@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk]
Verzonden: dinsdag 15 februari 2011 2:20Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
CC: Joe Taylor
O= nderwerp: LF: Alignment of (Narrow Band) DATA and WSPR frequency=E2=80= =99s on the 500 KHz band.

Alignment of  (Narrow Band) DATA  and  = ;WSPR  frequency=E2=80=99s on the  500 KHz&n= bsp; band.

 

The<= SPAN>  original wspr frequency   502.4<= SPAN>  was  defined  as th= e  working  frequency  to  utilise the  =E2=80=98clean=E2= =80=99 area  just under the  504=   harmonic, whilst avoiding the  various  beacons  running  acro= ss  the  501/504  ba= nd at the  time. However, time has moved on and there ar= e now numerous =E2=80=98dial setting=E2=80=99s=E2=80=99 in use both sides= of the Atlantic.

 

Due= to  an apparent  increase = in the  side band  noise=   from the  504 signal , possibly by&n= bsp; enhanced  propagation , the  ROS  MF  (100 hz b/w) working  frequenc= y is  to be re defined as  500&n= bsp; USB dial  set  giving a  centr= e  carrier  frequency of 501.500  

 

Due<= SPAN>  to  Ae  bandwidth= and  perhaps  alignment = with   other   band=E2=80=99s,  I  &nbs= p;would  suggest the original WSPR  502.4K is  replaced  with the  lower frequency  of  4= 95.9K , thus  restoring the  System=E2= =80=99s  coverage and  facilitating  changes  of mode etc within a&nbs= p; narrow bandwidth.

 

I do= n=E2=80=99t  see  this  detracting  from the monitoring  o= f spot  frequency  beacons = over 505Khz , but more  appropriate &= nbsp; to  transmitting  station= s , which  by the  nature of the=   antenna arrays are  not  able  comfortably  to  qsy  from  top  = to  bottom of the  band without = re-tuning, not  always a  simple  option.

 

Comm= ents  or  suggestions please ?.=

 

Grah= am

G0NBD

 





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