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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 02:01:50 +0200
From: DK7FC <selberdenken@posteo.de>
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Subject: Re: LF: MF propagation over sea water
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Hi Alan,

Well, it is not a new effect that i've discovered, maybe i should have 
added this, as usual.
I'm here talking about MF, i.e. the 630m band and there is no daytime 
range of 1000 km above land even with more power then you may expect. 
The typical daytime range over land is 300...400 km. This is what i see 
since several months now.
For example: No chance to get a decode by F6GEX in daylight, while i am 
quite detectable at night:
Timestamp 	Call 	MHz 	SNR 	Grid 	Reporter 	RGrid 	km
  2015-06-05 01:48 	 DK7FC 	 0.475682 	 +8 	 JN49ik 	 F6GEX 	 IN97na 	 758


Of course it depends a bit on the ground conductivity and hills and so 
on. But i never (!) made 800 km over a land path in daytime. So there is 
not really a skywave on MF in daylight. OK it may still be there but 60 
dB weaker, not to mention for our purposes.
So in that specific situation, the decode by TF3HZ, it must be a 
combination of *skywave reaching the sea water and then travelling above 
the water as a ground wave*, 2400 km in sum.

I found that quite interesting and the effect is nicely shown in the 
capture of the WSPR map, thus i thought i'll share it :-) This is the 
point i made here.

73, Stefan


Am 18.06.2015 01:18, schrieb ALAN MELIA:
> Hi Stefan, I'm not sure what point you are making here....maximum skywave daytime range is about 1000km so there is no ground reflection. However a receiiving station near seawater can get a "coastal effect" which is a bit like focussing receibing the direct skywave plus a slightly shorter one which is reflected off the coastal water. This effect  is not available on land because of the larger variations in "roughness" over land as well as its absorption. Also over water at 400km there is substantial groundwave, though the effect of this depends on the power radiated and S/N at the receiver For commercial station (Big antennas) the ground and skywave are around the same strength at about 700km. Amateur station do not radiate ground wave so efficiently so the groundwave is maybe about 6dB weaker (this was what we measured at 136 about 10 years ago.)  Would that help explain it??
>
> Alan
> G3NYK
> ----Original message----
>  From : selberdenken@posteo.de
> Date : 17/06/2015 - 23:48 (GMTST)
> To : rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
> Subject : LF: MF propagation over sea water
>
> Hi MF,
>
> While there is nearly no chance to leave decodes above 400 km in
> daylight above land, it seems to be no problem above sea water. As soon
> as the first hop (?) hits the ground on water, the wave can travel to
> the RX site. At least this attachment shows this effect. The distance
> crossed in daylight is about 800 km in this picture.
>
> 73, Stefan
>
>
>    

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Hi Alan, <br>
<br>
Well, it is not a new effect that i've discovered, maybe i should have
added this, as usual. <br>
I'm here talking about MF, i.e. the 630m band and there is no daytime
range of 1000 km above land even with more power then you may expect.
The typical daytime range over land is 300...400 km. This is what i see
since several months now. <br>
For example: No chance to get a decode by F6GEX in daylight, while i am
quite detectable at night:<br>
<table>
  <tbody>
    <tr>
      <th>Timestamp</th>
      <th>Call</th>
      <th>MHz</th>
      <th>SNR</th>
      <th>Grid</th>
      <th>Reporter</th>
      <th>RGrid</th>
      <th>km</th>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <td align="right"> 2015-06-05 01:48 </td>
      <td align="left"> DK7FC </td>
      <td align="right"> 0.475682 </td>
      <td align="right"> +8 </td>
      <td align="left"> JN49ik </td>
      <td align="left"> F6GEX </td>
      <td align="left"> IN97na </td>
      <td align="right"> 758 </td>
    </tr>
  </tbody>
</table>
<br>
Of course it depends a bit on the ground conductivity and hills and so
on. But i never (!) made 800 km over a land path in daytime. So there
is not really a skywave on MF in daylight. OK it may still be there but
60 dB weaker, not to mention for our purposes.<br>
So in that specific situation, the decode by TF3HZ, it must be a
combination of <b>skywave reaching the sea water and then travelling
above the water as a ground wave</b>, 2400 km in sum.<br>
<br>
I found that quite interesting and the effect is nicely shown in the
capture of the WSPR map, thus i thought i'll share it :-) This is the
point i made here.<br>
<br>
73, Stefan<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Am 18.06.2015 01:18, schrieb ALAN MELIA:
<blockquote
 cite="mid:5146574.123205.1434583108891.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">Hi Stefan, I'm not sure what point you are making here....maximum skywave daytime range is about 1000km so there is no ground reflection. However a receiiving station near seawater can get a "coastal effect" which is a bit like focussing receibing the direct skywave plus a slightly shorter one which is reflected off the coastal water. This effect  is not available on land because of the larger variations in "roughness" over land as well as its absorption. Also over water at 400km there is substantial groundwave, though the effect of this depends on the power radiated and S/N at the receiver For commercial station (Big antennas) the ground and skywave are around the same strength at about 700km. Amateur station do not radiate ground wave so efficiently so the groundwave is maybe about 6dB weaker (this was what we measured at 136 about 10 years ago.)  Would that help explain it??

Alan
G3NYK
----Original message----
>From : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:selberdenken@posteo.de">selberdenken@posteo.de</a>
Date : 17/06/2015 - 23:48 (GMTST)
To : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org">rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</a>
Subject : LF: MF propagation over sea water

Hi MF,

While there is nearly no chance to leave decodes above 400 km in 
daylight above land, it seems to be no problem above sea water. As soon 
as the first hop (?) hits the ground on water, the wave can travel to 
the RX site. At least this attachment shows this effect. The distance 
crossed in daylight is about 800 km in this picture.

73, Stefan


  </pre>
</blockquote>
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