Return-Path: X-Spam-DCC: paranoid 1169; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL, HTML_MESSAGE,RATWARE_GECKO_BUILD autolearn=no version=3.1.3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by paranoid.lipkowski.org (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id t4V7HrFg001279 for ; Sun, 31 May 2015 09:17:53 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1YyxRg-00049z-9E for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 31 May 2015 08:14:08 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1YyxRe-00049q-Fd for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 31 May 2015 08:14:06 +0100 Received: from mout3.freenet.de ([195.4.92.93]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1YyxRc-0003Bm-8p for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 31 May 2015 08:14:05 +0100 Received: from [195.4.92.142] (helo=mjail2.freenet.de) by mout3.freenet.de with esmtpa (ID dl4yhf@freenet.de) (port 25) (Exim 4.82 #2) id 1YyxRb-0001y8-0h for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 31 May 2015 09:14:03 +0200 Received: from localhost ([::1]:47806 helo=mjail2.freenet.de) by mjail2.freenet.de with esmtpa (ID dl4yhf@freenet.de) (Exim 4.82 #2) id 1YyxRa-0006uX-Sf for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 31 May 2015 09:14:02 +0200 Received: from mx8.freenet.de ([195.4.92.18]:37693) by mjail2.freenet.de with esmtpa (ID dl4yhf@freenet.de) (Exim 4.82 #2) id 1YyxOK-0002s6-DB for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 31 May 2015 09:10:40 +0200 Received: from x4d088d17.dyn.telefonica.de ([77.8.141.23]:4194 helo=[192.168.178.21]) by mx8.freenet.de with esmtpsa (ID dl4yhf@freenet.de) (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (port 465) (Exim 4.82 #2) id 1YyxOJ-0000uq-P7 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 31 May 2015 09:10:40 +0200 Message-ID: <556AB3EC.5050607@freenet.de> Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 09:10:36 +0200 From: wolf_dl4yhf User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130620 Thunderbird/17.0.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <91F37C608C8244FA9EE41F66FD8D79E6@White> <556A48E2.5040802@gmail.com> <6193AB3C29844ED2A88BFD49480C5055@White> In-Reply-To: <6193AB3C29844ED2A88BFD49480C5055@White> X-Originated-At: 77.8.141.23!4194 X-Scan-Signature: 588071ad363eff79fc1a170bd98c0eea Subject: Re: LF: Dual-speed WSPR Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------090300060206090405090701" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 10.1.3.10 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3380 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090300060206090405090701 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings all, About the different SNR indications of WSPR-2 and -15 : The question is how WSPR estimates the "noise" vale .. possibly using the 'lower quartile' method described by G4JNT once upon a time, i.e. sorting the FFT frequency bins from a certain frequency range (which.. ?) by amplitude and taking the bin, corrected by something, as an estimate for the noise level ? In that case, because I guess the frequency bins are only 1/8th as wide in WSPR-15 than in WSPR-2, the indicated noise level may depend a lot on the drift rate of all those 'nasty little QRM spikes' (in the spectrum), and this may be different for each and every receiver location. Here are my decodes for DF6NM and G4JNT (maybe Markus wants to compare).. WSPR-15: 2245 -2 -1.3 0.475824 0 DF6NM JN59 27 2315 -20 -0.6 0.475810 0 G4JNT IO90 33 2330 -8 -1.3 0.475824 0 DF6NM JN59 27 2345 -17 -0.6 0.475810 0 G4JNT IO90 33 0015 -15 -0.9 0.475810 -1 G4JNT IO90 33 0030 -2 -1.3 0.475824 0 DF6NM JN59 27 0100 -17 -0.6 0.475810 0 G4JNT IO90 33 0130 -11 -0.6 0.475810 0 G4JNT IO90 33 0130 -6 -1.3 0.475824 0 DF6NM JN59 27 0230 -5 -1.3 0.475824 0 DF6NM JN59 27 0245 -20 -0.6 0.475810 0 G4JNT IO90 33 0330 -7 -1.3 0.475824 0 DF6NM JN59 27 0345 -31 -0.9 0.475810 -1 G4JNT IO90 33 (btw interesting to see G4JNT dropping so low at 03:45, guess that one would possibly NOT have been decoded in WSPR-2) DF6NM in WSPR-2: 2328 -11 -1.5 0.475791 0 DF6NM JN59 27 2346 -11 -1.7 0.475791 0 DF6NM JN59 27 0028 -7 -1.7 0.475791 0 DF6NM JN59 27 0046 0 -1.5 0.475791 0 DF6NM JN59 27 0128 1 -1.5 0.475791 0 DF6NM JN59 27 0228 -3 -1.5 0.475791 0 DF6NM JN59 27 0246 -2 -1.7 0.475791 0 DF6NM JN59 27 0328 -5 -1.4 0.475791 0 DF6NM JN59 27 0346 -12 -1.5 0.475792 0 DF6NM JN59 27 From the last transmission (03:30 to 03:45 in WSPR-15): -7 dB Average between the adjacent WSPR-2 transmissions: -8.5 dB (-> very similar results as from SM2DJK and DG3LV.... -15 shows 1.5 dB "better") 73, Wolf DL4YHF (receiver several hundred meters away from houses, but mains-fed -> QRM) Am 31.05.2015 02:07, schrieb Markus Vester: > Yeah maybe. But at the moment I'd rather keep things as simple as > possible, and I anyway wouldn't expect a sharp optimum regarding speed. > The idea is to compare the SNR of the slow sequence with the average > of the two surrounding fast sequences, received by the same monitor. > If the dB results were the same, we could probably exploit the full 9 > dB advantage due to the lower threshold (-38 vs -29 dB), otherwise > we'd have to subtract the dB difference. > Results from first round: > 2015-05-30 23:46 DF6NM 0.475791 -11 0 JN59nj 0.5 DL4YHF > JO42fd 359 330 > 2015-05-30 23:30 DF6NM 0.475824 -8 0 JN59nj 0.5 DL4YHF > JO42fd 359 330 > 2015-05-30 23:28 DF6NM 0.475791 -11 0 JN59nj 0.5 DL4YHF > JO42fd 359 330 > => WSPR-15 SNR happened to be 3 dB better! > 2015-05-30 23:46 DF6NM 0.475790 -15 0 JN59nj 0.5 SM2DJK > KP03au 1694 15 > 2015-05-30 23:30 DF6NM 0.475823 -13 0 JN59nj 0.5 SM2DJK > KP03au 1694 15 > 2015-05-30 23:28 DF6NM 0.475790 -14 0 JN59nj 0.5 SM2DJK > KP03au 1694 15 > => WSPR-15 shows 1.5 dB better. > 2015-05-30 23:46 DF6NM 0.475792 +1 0 JN59nj 0.5 DG3LV > JO53gv 502 356 > 2015-05-30 23:30 DF6NM 0.475824 -2 0 JN59nj 0.5 DG3LV > JO53gv 502 356 > 2015-05-30 23:28 DF6NM 0.475792 -8 0 JN59nj 0.5 DG3LV > JO53gv 502 356 > => WSPR-15 shows 1.5 dB better. > This is an unexpected result, implying that the advantage of WSPR-15 > would be more than 9 dB, instead of less. But on the other hand the dB > values may not be telling the whole story, because the threshold for a > fading signal might still be higher than -38 dB. > All the best, > Markus (DF6NM) > > *From:* DK7FC > *Sent:* Sunday, May 31, 2015 1:33 AM > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Subject:* Re: LF: Dual-speed WSPR > > Markus, > > What about the old slow-WSPR by DF6NM? It could be useful to try > WSPR-4 for experiments. There is not just 2 and 15. And WSPR-120 on > VLF... No problem! > > 73, Stefan > > Am 31.05.2015 01:28, schrieb Markus Vester: >> To allow SNR comparisons at different speeds, I will transmit a >> mixed-mode beacon tonight. It will consist of two WSPR-2 sequences, >> before and after a WSPR-15 sequence on each odd half hour: >> hh:28 - hh:30: WSPR-2 475.790 kHz >> hh:30 - hh:45: WSPR-15 475.823 kHz >> hh:46 - hh:48: WSPR-2 475.790 kHz >> Transmitter power is currently 25 watts into an antenna with 2% >> efficiency. Am listening to both modes at all other times. >> All the best, >> Markus (DF6NM) --------------090300060206090405090701 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Greetings all,

About the different SNR indications of WSPR-2 and -15 :
The question is how WSPR estimates the "noise" vale .. possibly using the 'lower quartile' method described by G4JNT once upon a time, i.e. sorting the FFT frequency bins from a certain frequency range (which.. ?) by amplitude and taking the <N/4-th> bin, corrected by something, as an estimate for the noise level ?
In that case, because I guess the frequency bins are only 1/8th as wide in WSPR-15 than in WSPR-2, the indicated noise level may depend a lot on the drift rate of all those 'nasty little QRM spikes' (in the spectrum), and this may be different for each and every receiver location.

Here are my decodes for DF6NM and G4JNT (maybe Markus wants to compare)..

WSPR-15:

2245 -2 -1.3 0.475824 0 DF6NM JN59 27

2315 -20 -0.6 0.475810 0 G4JNT IO90 33

2330 -8 -1.3 0.475824 0 DF6NM JN59 27

2345 -17 -0.6 0.475810 0 G4JNT IO90 33

0015 -15 -0.9 0.475810 -1 G4JNT IO90 33

0030 -2 -1.3 0.475824 0 DF6NM JN59 27

0100 -17 -0.6 0.475810 0 G4JNT IO90 33

0130 -11 -0.6 0.475810 0 G4JNT IO90 33

0130 -6 -1.3 0.475824 0 DF6NM JN59 27

0230 -5 -1.3 0.475824 0 DF6NM JN59 27

0245 -20 -0.6 0.475810 0 G4JNT IO90 33

0330 -7 -1.3 0.475824 0 DF6NM JN59 27

0345 -31 -0.9 0.475810 -1 G4JNT IO90 33


(btw interesting to see G4JNT dropping so low at 03:45, guess that one would possibly NOT have been decoded in WSPR-2)



DF6NM in WSPR-2:
2328 -11 -1.5 0.475791 0 DF6NM JN59 27
2346 -11 -1.7 0.475791 0 DF6NM JN59 27
0028 -7 -1.7 0.475791 0 DF6NM JN59 27
0046 0 -1.5 0.475791 0 DF6NM JN59 27

0128 1 -1.5 0.475791 0 DF6NM JN59 27

0228 -3 -1.5 0.475791 0 DF6NM JN59 27
0246 -2 -1.7 0.475791 0 DF6NM JN59 27


0328 -5 -1.4 0.475791 0 DF6NM JN59 27

0346 -12 -1.5 0.475792 0 DF6NM JN59 27


From the last transmission (03:30 to 03:45 in WSPR-15): -7 dB
Average between the adjacent WSPR-2 transmissions: -8.5 dB

(-> very similar results as from SM2DJK and DG3LV....  -15 shows 1.5 dB "better")


73,
  Wolf DL4YHF
   (receiver several hundred meters away from houses, but mains-fed -> QRM)







Am 31.05.2015 02:07, schrieb Markus Vester:
Yeah maybe. But at the moment I'd rather keep things as simple as possible, and I anyway wouldn't expect a sharp optimum regarding speed.
 
The idea is to compare the SNR of the slow sequence with the average of the two surrounding fast sequences, received by the same monitor. If the dB results were the same, we could probably exploit the full 9 dB advantage due to the lower threshold (-38 vs -29 dB), otherwise we'd have to subtract the dB difference.
 
Results from first round:
 
 2015-05-30 23:46   DF6NM   0.475791   -11   0   JN59nj   0.5   DL4YHF   JO42fd   359   330 
 2015-05-30 23:30   DF6NM   0.475824   -8   0   JN59nj   0.5   DL4YHF   JO42fd   359   330  
 2015-05-30 23:28   DF6NM   0.475791   -11   0   JN59nj   0.5   DL4YHF   JO42fd   359   330
=> WSPR-15 SNR happened to be 3 dB better!
 
 2015-05-30 23:46   DF6NM   0.475790   -15   0   JN59nj   0.5   SM2DJK   KP03au   1694   15
 2015-05-30 23:30   DF6NM   0.475823   -13   0   JN59nj   0.5   SM2DJK   KP03au   1694   15 
 2015-05-30 23:28   DF6NM   0.475790   -14   0   JN59nj   0.5   SM2DJK   KP03au   1694   15
=> WSPR-15 shows 1.5 dB better.
 
 2015-05-30 23:46   DF6NM   0.475792   +1   0   JN59nj   0.5   DG3LV   JO53gv   502   356 
 2015-05-30 23:30   DF6NM   0.475824   -2   0   JN59nj   0.5   DG3LV   JO53gv   502   356 
 2015-05-30 23:28   DF6NM   0.475792   -8   0   JN59nj   0.5   DG3LV   JO53gv   502   356
=> WSPR-15 shows 1.5 dB better.
 
This is an unexpected result, implying that the advantage of WSPR-15 would be more than 9 dB, instead of less. But on the other hand the dB values may not be telling the whole story, because the threshold for a fading signal might still be higher than -38 dB.
 
All the best,
Markus (DF6NM)

From: DK7FC
Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2015 1:33 AM
Subject: Re: LF: Dual-speed WSPR

Markus,

What about the old slow-WSPR by DF6NM? It could be useful to try WSPR-4 for experiments. There is not just 2 and 15. And WSPR-120 on VLF... No problem!

73, Stefan

Am 31.05.2015 01:28, schrieb Markus Vester:
To allow SNR comparisons at different speeds, I will transmit a mixed-mode beacon tonight. It will consist of two WSPR-2 sequences, before and after a WSPR-15 sequence on each odd half hour:
 
hh:28 - hh:30: WSPR-2 475.790 kHz
hh:30 - hh:45: WSPR-15 475.823 kHz
hh:46 - hh:48: WSPR-2 475.790 kHz
 
Transmitter power is currently 25 watts into an antenna with 2% efficiency. Am listening to both modes at all other times.
 
All the best,
Markus (DF6NM)

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