Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-mb06.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 73F43380000BF; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 15:19:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1UDKOb-00040E-TU for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 06 Mar 2013 19:53:01 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1UDKOb-000405-5n for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 06 Mar 2013 19:53:01 +0000 Received: from out1.ip01ir2.opaltelecom.net ([62.24.128.237]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1UDKOV-00009Y-ID for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 06 Mar 2013 19:53:00 +0000 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvoCAL+BN1ECZMUt/2dsb2JhbAANN4QUhA+8HgQBgXCDHQEBAQEDI0QeBAkCCQgEAQEBCRYBBwMCAgkDAgECAQ8lCQgTBgIBARKHawOPFZoScYkYDYlKjESBISF7EQEGgieBEwOUa4Fgi1iIIA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,795,1355097600"; d="scan'208,217";a="421297333" Received: from host-2-100-197-45.as13285.net (HELO [127.0.0.1]) ([2.100.197.45]) by out1.ip01ir2.opaltelecom.net with ESMTP; 06 Mar 2013 19:52:34 +0000 Message-ID: <51379E81.4060205@psk31.plus.com> Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 19:52:33 +0000 From: g3zjo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:11.0) Gecko/20120327 Thunderbird/11.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <51371E11.6020502@psk31.plus.com> <513746F3.7090508@psk31.plus.com> <8A53C1DCE6BB4017B85B76DD1CB554EE@gnat> In-Reply-To: <8A53C1DCE6BB4017B85B76DD1CB554EE@gnat> X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 130306-0, 06/03/2013), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Hi Alan Yes interesting. I had a Creed 7B? Rattler as well as my Z80 microprocessor set up, so I kept compatible with the mechanical methods. The Creed was in the garage and I sent to it via co-ax for any hard copy and also printing tickets for local do's on card, a man with a printer was a rarity. [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: 5047c9669d5f66b4c9d7ff0d693cf68a Subject: Re: LF: Re: RTTY Protocol Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------010002030107040400020703" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=5.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d601a5137a4d33fc9 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010002030107040400020703 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Alan Yes interesting. I had a Creed 7B? Rattler as well as my Z80 microprocessor set up, so I kept compatible with the mechanical methods. The Creed was in the garage and I sent to it via co-ax for any hard copy and also printing tickets for local do's on card, a man with a printer was a rarity. I wonder if you ever came across a problem I had one winter, the Creed stopped printing and I found that the magnet had permanently lost its magnetism due to extreme cold. 73 Eddie On 06/03/2013 19:03, Alan Melia wrote: > Hi Eddie, we were using line machines for a purpose other than that > for which they were designed :-)) The way round this was to have some > "special" operating methods which got lost when the ZX80 came along. > On HF I remember sending RlsRlsR at the begining of an over to ensure > that the receiving machine had not slipped into figure shift due to > noise. On weak signals it was common to insert lots of extra ls. The > standard end of line was CRLFCR to ensure the carriage had time to get > back to the stop, before the text started. Many of the "ZX" ops didnt > send any CR or LF at all because their display wrapped......the Creed > didn't!! > The QSO finished as a square black block at the end of the line. > All good fun. > My mate G3YKB used to be on the LF reflector he was editor of the > BARTG newsletter around 1970. > Alan > G3NYK > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* g3zjo > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 06, 2013 1:38 PM > *Subject:* Re: LF: Re: RTTY Protocol > > On 06/03/2013 13:14, Minto Witteveen wrote: >> That settles it. The info I got (from an untrusworthy source it >> seems) told me mark is 2125 and space is 2295. See my original >> message below. >> But it is the other way around. >> But it is only independent of the sideband used if both sender >> and receiver use the same sideband.... You still have to agree. >> And it seems that the current consensus is mark = highest tone = >> highest frequency. So USB if AFSK is used. > Yes yes. > > BTW regarding missing the first character 's. In the mechanical > days did we not send CR/LF first to get things going? I have seen > the software have problems during the recent tests, printing > Numbers instead of Letters. This can be alleviated by sending 46RY > first, 46 I think being RY with LetFig set wrong. > > Eddie > >> 73’s Minto pa3bca >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse >> *From:* Alan Melia >> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 06, 2013 13:57 >> *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >> >> *Subject:* Re: LF: RTTY Protocol >> From my days on HF RTTY (~1970) with mechanical 'printers, the >> highest RF frequency was Mark (or idle tone) It was independent >> of which sideband was used. I think this was also the mode used >> by the commercial stations >> Remember only European lines used bi-polar signalling. The US >> used a 20mA mark and no current for space. A mechanical machine >> of either type would chatter if the mechanism was not held in >> Mark. Timing was mechanical and stop-start was necessary to >> maintain character timing sync. with simple mechanical governors. >> Alan G3NYK >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Minto Witteveen >> *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 06, 2013 11:09 AM >> *Subject:* Re: LF: RTTY Protocol >> >> Hmm might this be because ‘in the old days’ (amateur) RTTY >> was done with the rig in LSB mode using AFSK? >> With mark at 2125 Hz and space at 2295 hz and mark being the >> idling position, when using LSB the actual transmitted >> frequencies would be ‘swapped’ (reversed) >> So MTTY seems to assume rig at USB, while all (all?) others >> assume LSB… >> >> Still, Stefan and I seem to do RTTY wrong (i.e. amateur >> reversed, as in AFSK on USB).I just checked my PIC code and I >> have mark at high (DDS_BASE + 85 Hz) and space at low >> (DDS_BASE). This then gets swapped around by fldigi because I >> listen (via websdr) in USB… This explains why fldigi decodes >> me (and Stefan) just right. >> >> This is of course based on the assumption that ‘right’ means >> AFSK on LSB, that the space must be the high tone AND the >> low(est) frequency. >> What _is_ the consensus (if any)? >> >> 73’s Minto pa3bca >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse >> *From:* g3zjo >> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 06, 2013 11:44 >> *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >> >> *Subject:* LF: RTTY Protocol >> Graham >> >> Just confirmed by test, MMTTY is backwards compared to all >> other Software. Others idle on the high tone MMTTY idles on >> the low, unless the REV is pressed. >> >> >> From Wiki >> /the upper tone used for idle condition (MARK). // >> >> /Another site says/ >> /You also have to switch the correct phase position (whether >> the lower or higher frequency carrier in frequency modulation >> corresponds to "Mark" or "space"). >> / >> /Mind you a Ham education site on the subject says./ >> Remember that bfo’s help filter out the carrier waves to >> allow for the original signals to come through/ >> >> Eddie >> > --------------010002030107040400020703 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Alan

Yes interesting.

I had a Creed 7B? Rattler as well as my Z80 microprocessor set up, so I kept compatible with the mechanical methods. The Creed was in the garage and  I sent to it via co-ax for any hard copy and also printing tickets for local do's on card, a man with a printer was a rarity.

I wonder if you ever came across a problem I had one winter, the Creed stopped printing and I found that the magnet had permanently lost its magnetism due to extreme cold.

73 Eddie

On 06/03/2013 19:03, Alan Melia wrote:
Hi Eddie, we were using line machines for a purpose other than that for which they were designed :-)) The way round this was to have some "special" operating methods which got lost when the ZX80 came along.
 
On HF I remember sending RlsRlsR at the begining of an over to ensure that the receiving machine had not slipped into figure shift due to noise. On weak signals it was common to insert lots of extra ls. The standard end of line was CRLFCR to ensure the carriage had time to get back to the stop, before the text started. Many of the "ZX" ops didnt send any CR or LF at all because their display wrapped......the Creed didn't!!
The QSO finished as a square black block at the end of the line.
 
All good fun.
My mate G3YKB used to be on the LF reflector he was editor of the BARTG newsletter around 1970.
 
Alan
G3NYK
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: g3zjo
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: RTTY Protocol

On 06/03/2013 13:14, Minto Witteveen wrote:
That settles it. The info I got (from an untrusworthy source it seems) told me mark is 2125 and space is 2295. See my original message below.
But it is the other way around.
 
But it is only independent of the sideband used if both sender and receiver use the same sideband.... You still have to agree.
And it seems that the current consensus is mark = highest tone = highest frequency. So USB if AFSK is used.
Yes yes.

BTW regarding missing the first character 's. In the mechanical days did we not send CR/LF first to get things going? I have seen the software have problems during the recent tests, printing Numbers instead of Letters. This can be alleviated by sending 46RY first, 46 I think being RY with LetFig set wrong.

Eddie

 
73’s Minto pa3bca
 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
 
From: Alan Melia
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 13:57
Subject: Re: LF: RTTY Protocol
 
From my days on HF RTTY (~1970) with mechanical 'printers, the highest RF frequency was Mark (or idle tone)  It was independent of which sideband was used. I think this was also the mode used by the commercial stations
Remember only European lines used bi-polar signalling. The US used a 20mA mark and no current for space. A mechanical machine of either type would chatter if the mechanism was not held in Mark. Timing was mechanical and stop-start was necessary to maintain character timing sync. with simple mechanical governors.
 
Alan G3NYK
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: LF: RTTY Protocol
 

Hmm might this be because ‘in the old days’  (amateur) RTTY was done with the rig in LSB mode using AFSK?
With mark at 2125 Hz and space at 2295 hz and mark being the idling position, when using LSB the actual transmitted frequencies would be ‘swapped’ (reversed)
So MTTY seems to assume rig at USB, while all (all?) others assume LSB…

Still, Stefan and I seem to do RTTY wrong (i.e. amateur reversed, as in AFSK on USB).  I just checked my PIC code and I have mark at high (DDS_BASE + 85 Hz) and space at low (DDS_BASE). This then gets swapped around by fldigi because I listen (via websdr) in USB… This explains why fldigi decodes me (and Stefan) just right.

This is of course based on the assumption that ‘right’ means AFSK on LSB, that the space must be the high tone AND the low(est) frequency.
What _is_ the consensus (if any)?

73’s Minto pa3bca

 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
 
From: g3zjo
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 11:44
Subject: LF: RTTY Protocol
 
Graham

Just confirmed by test, MMTTY is backwards compared to all other Software. Others idle on the high tone MMTTY idles on the low, unless the REV is pressed.


From Wiki
the upper tone used for idle condition (MARK).

Another site says
You also have to switch the correct phase position (whether the lower or higher frequency carrier in frequency modulation corresponds to "Mark" or "space").

Mind you a Ham education site on the subject says.
Remember that bfo’s help filter out the carrier waves to allow for the original signals to come through

Eddie



--------------010002030107040400020703--