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[195.171.43.25]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id am3si16051764lac.112.2014.03.01.11.22.16 for ; Sat, 01 Mar 2014 11:22:17 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) client-ip=195.171.43.25; Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) smtp.mail=owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@btinternet.com Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1WJpRz-0001NJ-NC for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 01 Mar 2014 19:19:55 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1WJpRz-0001N8-1a for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 01 Mar 2014 19:19:55 +0000 Received: from smtpout16.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk ([65.20.0.136]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1WJpRw-00038X-NN for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 01 Mar 2014 19:19:53 +0000 X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A090206.531232D7.00D4,ss=1,re=0.000,recu=0.000,reip=0.000,cl=1,cld=1,fgs=0 X-Junkmail-Premium-Raw: score=12/97,refid=2.7.2:2014.3.1.161815:17:12.731,ip=,rules=__HAS_MSGID, __SANE_MSGID, MSGID_32HEX_LC, INVALID_MSGID_NO_FQDN, __MSGID_32HEX, __HAS_FROM, __PHISH_FROM2, __FRAUD_WEBMAIL_FROM, __TO_MALFORMED_2, __TO_NO_NAME, __BOUNCE_CHALLENGE_SUBJ, __BOUNCE_NDR_SUBJ_EXEMPT, __SUBJ_ALPHA_END, __MIME_VERSION, __CT, __CTYPE_MULTIPART_ALT, __CTYPE_HAS_BOUNDARY, __CTYPE_MULTIPART, __HAS_X_PRIORITY, __HAS_MSMAIL_PRI, __HAS_X_MAILER, USER_AGENT_OE, __OUTLOOK_MUA_1, __USER_AGENT_MS_GENERIC, __ANY_URI, __FRAUD_BODY_WEBMAIL, __URI_NO_WWW, __CP_URI_IN_BODY, __SUBJ_ALPHA_NEGATE, SUPERLONG_LINE, __HAS_HTML, BODY_SIZE_10000_PLUS, __MIME_HTML, __TAG_EXISTS_HTML, __URI_NS, HTML_50_70, __PHISH_FROM, __OUTLOOK_MUA, __FRAUD_WEBMAIL, FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown Received: from gnat (86.146.137.200) by smtpout16.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk (8.6.100.99.10223) (authenticated as alan.melia@btinternet.com) id 52F3730600C730F1 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 1 Mar 2014 19:19:50 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btinternet.com; s=btcpcloud; t=1393701592; bh=3OBlevXrBmQcRmEMrrBBcWq7Pd3dFzsDKvjqrdsR7fw=; h=Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Mailer; b=iDjwZO5RnRsx2u7IYp8vj2KQ6xcftQaEJL19WwcF+omXzcSCIVcBNiRGVxTUxrAETsy3vmQPP6tHdco9Aq9Sgcu54NbpNBG8fcM9DC9OEeX+eJiKgsep1yHhoT8RzoDlX9I59FXZjeESZpvZyN8t0Y2oyUBGLHgb3E/l2wdcW3g= Message-ID: <5127602672434242B629647B237BD8FF@gnat> From: "Alan Melia" To: References: <0BBAB019609B4DF69ED8DC4EE820D0AC@gnat> Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 19:19:02 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: There has been a "relay" of the information. Though most do not receive above 24Khz Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: Warren Ziegler To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 6:44 PM Subject: Re: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: b94ece9466137fb0eee8344788d30cd4 Subject: Re: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0081_01CF3583.1AD55450" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.5 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK,HTML_30_40, HTML_FONTCOLOR_UNSAFE,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0081_01CF3583.1AD55450 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There has been a "relay" of the information. Though most do not receive = above 24Khz Alan ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Warren Ziegler=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 6:44 PM Subject: Re: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA Thanks Alan for the info and link. Might the vlf reflector guys be interested in our experiments? I think I joined the list but have not been active there, perhaps you = could pass on the info? 73& Tnx Warren 73 K2ORS On Mar 1, 2014 1:15 PM, "Alan Melia" = wrote: Hi Warren I think the 70kHz "boundary" is just the point at which = the Earth-Ionosphere waveguide supports so many different modes that the = modelling becomes difficult and the ray path is as effective. Even this = transition is fuzzy and is often quoted as low as 50kHz.=20 It may be of interest that Paul Nicholson has put a web front end to = the LWPC propagation code http://abelian.org/lwpc/ This gives reasonable results up to around = 45kHz. I have done some tests on it and it gives quite sensible answers. Alan=20 G3NYK ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Warren Ziegler=20 To: rsgb_lf_group=20 Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 3:54 PM Subject: Re: LF: Re: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA Hi Alan,=20 I agree, there was nothing that I could find that indicated = that there would be a problem at 30kHz. I even checked with a well known = vlf expert who has done design work for some of the BIG military vlf = systems. Somewhere around 70kHz there is a transitional area between = waveguide modes applicable at vlf and ray-tracing which is applicable at = higher frequencies. The increased number of modes above 70kHz I believe = explains the deep fading there as the modes constructively and = destructively interfere. However, it didn't hurt to ask for the additional frequencies = as Dex was able to use an existing loading coil to get on 45kHz within = hours of the license being issued! 73 Warren K2ORS On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 10:40 AM, Alan Melia = wrote: Hi Warren I cant see30kHz being particularly different for = propgation in that part of the spectrum. I can see 2nd harmonic trashing = WWVB clock synchronisation over a substantial area though, bearing in = mind the receivers are very simple.........and most only try to sync = around midnight. Alan G3NYK. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Warren Ziegler=20 To: rsgb_lf_group=20 Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 3:17 PM Subject: LF: U.S. VLF License WH2XBA Hello the list, Several questions have come up concerning the WH2XBA grant = and I thought I might address them here. Bob W2ZM contacted me about = applying for a grant at the top end of the vlf range (just below 30kHz). The thought was that the high end of vlf would be a bit less = challenging than the low end below 9kHz (which is unregulated). Some of the usual suspects expressed interest so they were = added to the application. Also Jim AA5BW - Jim and I have a mutual = friend through work - Jim is highly capable and technical and has = multiple sites throughout the country. There was some concern that the = frequencies around 30kHz were unoccupied due to propagation reasons and = some thought it might be good to go a bit higher, hence the 27-59kHz = range, leaving clearance for WWVB at the top end.=20 The license is for 5W ERP, 27-59kHz, CW and every data = mode that I could think of. The application was filed on January 29 and the license = issued on February 27 - this was despite some Federal Holidays and = closings due to blizzards! So I suspect that it didn't raise too many = questions. The stations are: WH2XBA/1 Bob W2ZM WH2XBA/2 Warren K2ORS WH2XBA/3 Jay W1VD WH2XBA/4 Dex W4DEX WH2XBA/5 Laurence KL1L=20 WH2XBA/6 /7 /8 etc etc James Plesa AA5BW WH2XBA Grant Attached. 73 Warren K2ORS --=20 73 Warren K2ORS WD2XGJ=20 WD2XSH/23 WE2XEB/2 WE2XGR/1=20 WG2XRS/1 WH2XBA/2 =20 --=20 73 Warren K2ORS WD2XGJ=20 WD2XSH/23 WE2XEB/2 WE2XGR/1 ------=_NextPart_000_0081_01CF3583.1AD55450 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There has been a "relay" of the = information. =20 Though most do not receive above 24Khz
Alan
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Warren = Ziegler=20
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 = 6:44=20 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: U.S. VLF = License=20 WH2XBA

Thanks Alan for the info and link.
Might the vlf reflector guys = be=20 interested in our experiments?
I think I joined the list but have = not been=20 active there, perhaps you could pass on the info?
73&=20 Tnx
Warren

73 K2ORS

On Mar 1, 2014 1:15 PM, "Alan Melia" <alan.melia@btinternet.com&g= t;=20 wrote:
Hi Warren I think the 70kHz "boundary" is = just the=20 point at which the Earth-Ionosphere waveguide supports so many = different=20 modes that the modelling becomes difficult and the ray path is as=20 effective.  Even this transition is fuzzy and is often quoted = as low as=20 50kHz.
 
It may be of interest that Paul Nicholson = has put a=20 web front end to the LWPC propagation code
http://abelian.org/lwpc/  This gives = reasonable=20 results up to around 45kHz. I have done some tests on it and it = gives quite=20 sensible answers.
 
Alan
G3NYK
----- Original Message ----- =
From: = Warren=20 Ziegler
To: rsgb_lf_group=20
Sent: Saturday, March 01, = 2014 3:54=20 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: U.S. = VLF License=20 WH2XBA

Hi Alan,=20

      I agree, there was nothing that I could = find=20 that indicated that there would be a problem at 30kHz. I even = checked with=20 a well known vlf expert who has done design work for some of the = BIG=20 military vlf systems. Somewhere around 70kHz there is a = transitional area=20 between waveguide modes applicable at vlf and ray-tracing which is = applicable at higher frequencies. The increased number of modes = above=20 70kHz I believe explains the deep fading there as the modes = constructively=20 and destructively interfere.
   However, it didn't hurt to ask for the = additional=20 frequencies as Dex was able to use an existing loading coil to get = on=20 45kHz within hours of the license being issued!


73 Warren K2ORS



On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 10:40 AM, Alan = Melia <alan.melia@btinternet.com> = wrote:
Hi Warren I cant see30kHz being = particularly=20 different for propgation in that part of the spectrum. I can see = 2nd=20 harmonic trashing WWVB clock synchronisation over a substantial = area=20 though, bearing in mind the receivers are very = simple.........and most=20 only try to sync around midnight.
 
Alan
G3NYK.
----- Original Message ----- =
From: Warren Ziegler
To: rsgb_lf_group
Sent: Saturday, March = 01, 2014=20 3:17 PM
Subject: LF: U.S. VLF = License=20 WH2XBA

Hello the list,

    Several questions have come up concerning = the=20 WH2XBA grant and I thought I might address them here. =  Bob W2ZM=20 contacted me about applying for a grant at the top end of the = vlf=20 range (just below 30kHz).
The thought was that the high end of vlf would be a bit = less=20 challenging than the low end below 9kHz (which is = unregulated).

    Some of the usual suspects expressed = interest so=20 they were added to the application. Also Jim AA5BW - Jim and I = have a=20 mutual friend through work - Jim is highly capable and =  technical=20 and has multiple sites throughout the country.   There = was some=20 concern that the frequencies around 30kHz were unoccupied due = to=20 propagation reasons and some thought it might be good to go a = bit=20 higher, hence the 27-59kHz range, leaving clearance for WWVB = at the=20 top end. 

     The license is for 5W ERP, 27-59kHz, = CW and=20 every data mode that I could think of.

    The application was filed on January 29 and = the=20 license issued on February 27 - this was despite some Federal = Holidays=20 and closings due to blizzards!  So I suspect that it = didn't raise=20 too many questions.

     The stations are:
WH2XBA/1    =20 Bob W2ZM
WH2XBA/2   Warren=20 K2ORS
WH2XBA/3    =20 Jay W1VD
WH2XBA/4    =20 Dex  W4DEX
WH2XBA/5   Laurence = KL1L 
WH2XBA/6 /7 /8 etc etc James Plesa AA5BW
 

WH2XBA Grant Attached.

73 Warren K2ORS

--
73 Warren K2ORS
      =  =20         WD2XGJ
      =  =20         WD2XSH/23
      =  =20         WE2XEB/2
      =  =20         WE2XGR/1=20
               =20 WG2XRS/1
               =20 WH2XBA/2

 =20 =


--
73 Warren K2ORS
      =  =20         WD2XGJ
        =  =20       WD2XSH/23
        =  =20       WE2XEB/2
        =    =20     WE2XGR/1

 =20 =
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