Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-mj02.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 8A5C2380000C1; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 13:32:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Trv0E-0002Ni-HF for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 18:31:22 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Trv0D-0002NZ-Oi for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 18:31:21 +0000 Received: from out1.ip06ir2.opaltelecom.net ([62.24.128.242]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1Trv0B-0002RL-0U for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 18:31:20 +0000 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApMBABe96VACZMQS/2dsb2JhbAANOL1rgxEBAQEBA2wKEwsJCAQBAQEJFggHCQMCAQIBDyUJCBMGAgEBiAEDG6VjiHwLAoZvi2iFLQOUNYFWgRyKG4gG X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,420,1355097600"; d="scan'208,217";a="561644685" Received: from host-2-100-196-18.as13285.net (HELO [127.0.0.1]) ([2.100.196.18]) by out1.ip06ir2.opaltelecom.net with ESMTP; 06 Jan 2013 18:30:57 +0000 Message-ID: <50E9C2E0.3040406@psk31.plus.com> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 18:30:56 +0000 From: g3zjo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:11.0) Gecko/20120327 Thunderbird/11.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <6BB1547C1F2041AC9F53361E123A7233@AGB> <76D697F908F543F98FDE24C566D57B7B@AGB> In-Reply-To: <76D697F908F543F98FDE24C566D57B7B@AGB> X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 130106-0, 06/01/2013), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Roger Great results. Can you out of interest disconnect the House / great lump of capacitance, mains wiring, water pipes etc. Leaving just the 2 probes and top wire. It would be re-produce-able then [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: 84ab60ecdd4473835b39687102047368 Subject: Re: LF: 472kHz TX without an antenna: it gets better (701km with around 5mW ERP) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080106040202060908020001" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=5.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d7b9650e9c3364f13 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080106040202060908020001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roger Great results. Can you out of interest disconnect the House / great lump of capacitance, mains wiring, water pipes etc. Leaving just the 2 probes and top wire. It would be re-produce-able then Eddie On 06/01/2013 18:10, Graham wrote: > That's a good start then Roger, ! > I think it could be visualised as a gradual / gradient , so > the top wires have the max current in free space and the > return path is some form of diffused large cross sectional > area , you could model it on 2 meters ..using what for > the ground ... cardboard box , bin bag , water and jar of cooking > salt , add to increase conduction ? > Could be simply gain is from the increased amps in the top > radiator , so the model would be quite small for 2 mtrs , > kitchen table job ! > .G.. > *From:* Roger Lapthorn > *Sent:* Sunday, January 06, 2013 5:53 PM > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Subject:* Re: LF: 472kHz TX without an antenna: it gets better (701km > with around 5mW ERP) > > Well this is just about the only explanation that will make any sense > Graham. > > If so, I would expect some directivity and when I analyse the results > after an overnight run we'll see if stations off the side of the > "loop" are statistically weaker (compared with the Marconi vertical) > than stations in the line of the "loop". If so, this would tend to > support loop like operation. The DL-SWL and PA reports are roughly in > the plane of the wire, but there are plenty of reports from other > directions too. > > Of course, here in the UK we have highly saturated ground - I have > NEVER known East Anglia to be so waterlogged - so the effective loop > area cannot be that great. > > Anyone care to offer other suggested modes for this "non antenna"? > > 73s > Roger G3XBM > > > > > > On 6 January 2013 17:42, Graham > wrote: > > R, > I thought it was established that the ground did not > 'exist' for some 20/40 feet or more from the surface and > as such, your using a loop with the bottom wire 40 feet > lower than the top wire ? > This was the principal of ground lying Ae .would not work > on salt marshes , but for normal ground , lossey but > capable of supporting radiation ? > G.. > > *From:* Roger Lapthorn > *Sent:* Sunday, January 06, 2013 5:28 PM > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > ; > rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk > > *Subject:* LF: 472kHz TX without an antenna: it gets better (701km > with around 5mW ERP) > > OK, now I am *totally* amazed.... > > Just got a WSPR spot from DL-SWL in Germany (JO52hp) at 701km > using just the earth electrode system on TX. Please someone, > explain why this works as well as it does, especially considering > my ERP must be around 5mW at best. > > Incidentally G3XIZ is a colossal +7dB S/N on WSPR and I think > Chris would be easily workable on CW using the earth electrode system. > > 73s > Roger G3XBM > > -- > http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ > http://www.g3xbm.co.uk > https://sites.google.com/site/sub9khz/ > http://qss2.blogspot.com/ > > > > > -- > http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ > http://www.g3xbm.co.uk > https://sites.google.com/site/sub9khz/ > http://qss2.blogspot.com/ > --------------080106040202060908020001 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roger

Great results.

Can you out of interest disconnect the House / great lump of capacitance, mains wiring, water pipes etc. Leaving just the 2 probes and top wire. It would be re-produce-able then

Eddie

On 06/01/2013 18:10, Graham wrote:
That's a  good  start  then Roger,  !
 
I  think it  could be visualised  as a    gradual  / gradient  , so the   top  wires  have the  max  current  in free  space  and the  return  path is  some  form of  diffused  large  cross  sectional  area     , you  could  model  it  on 2  meters  ..using  what  for  the  ground ... cardboard box , bin bag , water  and jar of cooking  salt , add  to  increase  conduction   ?
 
Could  be  simply  gain is from the  increased  amps  in the  top  radiator , so  the  model  would  be  quite  small  for 2  mtrs , kitchen  table  job !
 
.G..
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2013 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: LF: 472kHz TX without an antenna: it gets better (701km with around 5mW ERP)

Well this is just about the only explanation that will make any sense Graham.

If so, I would expect some directivity and when I analyse the results after an overnight run we'll see if stations off the side of the "loop" are statistically weaker (compared with the Marconi vertical) than stations in the line of the "loop". If so, this would tend to support loop like operation. The DL-SWL and PA reports are roughly in the plane of the wire, but there are plenty of reports from other directions too.

Of course, here in the UK we have highly saturated ground - I have NEVER known East Anglia to be so waterlogged - so the effective loop area cannot be that great.

Anyone care to offer other suggested modes for this "non antenna"?

73s
Roger G3XBM





On 6 January 2013 17:42, Graham <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
R,
 
I thought  it  was  established  that  the  ground  did  not  'exist'  for  some  20/40  feet  or more from the  surface  and  as  such, your  using a  loop  with the  bottom  wire   40  feet  lower than the  top  wire ?
 
This was the  principal  of  ground lying   Ae  .would  not  work  on  salt marshes  , but  for  normal  ground , lossey but  capable  of  supporting  radiation ?
 
G..

Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2013 5:28 PM
Subject: LF: 472kHz TX without an antenna: it gets better (701km with around 5mW ERP)

OK, now I am totally amazed....

Just got a WSPR spot from DL-SWL in Germany (JO52hp) at 701km using just the earth electrode system on TX. Please someone, explain why this works as well as it does, especially considering my ERP must be around 5mW at best.

Incidentally G3XIZ is a colossal +7dB S/N on WSPR and I think Chris would be easily workable on CW using the earth electrode system.

73s
Roger G3XBM



--
 http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/
http://www.g3xbm.co.uk
https://sites.google.com/site/sub9khz/
http://qss2.blogspot.com/


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