Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-mh03.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id C76703800009A; Sun, 9 Oct 2011 23:28:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1RD6Wq-0001zC-Tt for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Oct 2011 04:27:48 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1RD6Wm-0001z3-V0 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Oct 2011 04:27:44 +0100 Received: from defout.telus.net ([199.185.220.80] helo=outbound03.telus.net) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from <sthed475@telus.net>) id 1RD6Wj-0005bW-QW for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Oct 2011 04:27:44 +0100 Received: from edtncm02 ([199.185.220.224]) by priv-edtnes29.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.8.01.03.00 201-2260-125-20100507) with ESMTP id <20111010032738.ZOI11255.priv-edtnes29.telusplanet.net@edtncm02> for <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2011 21:27:38 -0600 Received: from [192.168.1.102] ([75.157.171.5]) by edtncm02 with bizsmtp id irTe1h00D07LRq301rTeRP; Sun, 09 Oct 2011 21:27:38 -0600 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=BitNaWA7zVB2o865XGvfWY9zoxUZtW6liQuYFxSbTNo= c=1 sm=2 a=yj_6LXTI0WAA:10 a=LGgl8L9ij00A:10 a=NoAKp6exAAAA:8 a=F3M5lZpKAAAA:8 a=nN7BH9HXAAAA:8 a=Jr-pot1_VcHUpisVP0sA:9 a=X51vHN_52rFMvPjlo-wA:7 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=B0cvAcWxpcAA:10 a=wk6s2zzMB60A:10 a=muIvw5a9-cgA:10 a=6HUDJaXT1hy7EfkP:21 a=TidTZSwaab93cGYC:21 a=IqC03tk1lPywdkZ6U2YA:9 a=7dEtlZtY5z20rA4n9LIA:7 a=8z971gTuXesTHbVb:21 a=xybr_2EK-o29YfqV:21 X-Telus-Outbound-IP: 75.157.171.5 Message-ID: <4E92662A.5030406@telus.net> Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 20:27:38 -0700 From: Scott Tilley <sthed475@telus.net> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:7.0.1) Gecko/20110929 Thunderbird/7.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <20111009.155855.1944.3.riese-k3djc@juno.com> <002d01cc86eb$6f677730$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> In-Reply-To: <002d01cc86eb$6f677730$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> X-Spam-Score: 1.4 (+) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,RATWARE_GECKO_BUILD=1.426 Subject: Re: LF: mains wires Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------090107080000080401070707" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.3 required=5.0 tests=FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS,HTML_20_30, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 1:2:422662752:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 1 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d60d74e92667a7309 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090107080000080401070707 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mal Something to keep in mind if the product was intentionally designed to be operated on 240VAC here in 120VAC land then it will NOT have a neutral or 'grounded conductor' in code speak. 240VAC is generated here from either side of a center tapped transformer. The center tap is the neutral / grounded conductor. So for 240VAC here in NA, a neutral is not used but rather two 'hots' of opposite phase. In a system like this a quite normal way to make a functional control switch is to kill only one leg. As it is not considered a disconnect switch opening both hots is not required. The 'code' disconnect switch CAN be the upstream circuit breaker or the cord-set. So you may ask why the colour coding was still wrong? Likely the equipment was not UL or CSA certified for NA. Even then the colour coding is very weakly dealt with on in the the part 1 installation code and not really technically enforceable in equipment. Assuming the equipment was not designed for EU use they may have not considered this as a potential issue... 73 Scott VE7TIL On 10/9/2011 6:25 PM, mal hamilton wrote: > Bob > If you look at a Dentron 2500 amplifier on the cct diagram the 230v > mains cable, WHITE wire goes to the ON/OFF switch on amplifier then > primary of HT transformer which to me is HOT and BLACK wire goes > directly to the other side of primary winding, NEUTRAL and GREEN to > chassis. > In the UK the switch is always in the LIVE (hot) wire and NEUTRAL > direct to the appliance except it happens to be a double switch. > UK appliance BROWN live, BLUE neutral, plus an earth wire (3 wire > appliance) > mal/g3kev > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* riese-k3djc@juno.com <mailto:riese-k3djc@juno.com> > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > <mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org> > *Sent:* Sunday, October 09, 2011 7:48 PM > *Subject:* Re: LF: mains wires > > what I use to keep track > Black is hot white is not > Bob K3DJC > On Sun, 9 Oct 2011 17:09:09 -0000 "mal hamilton" > <g3kevmal@talktalk.net <mailto:g3kevmal@talktalk.net>> writes: > > LF > I have a USA amplifier with 230v input. The mains wires are > BLACK, WHITE, and GREEN > The cct diagram shows White as the live wire with amplifier > mains switch in this line, Black goes to the other end > directly to transformer primary > and Green to earth. > but > according to USA info the Black wire should be Live and White > Neutral. > So beware !!!!!!!!!!!!!! > de g3kev > > ____________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email with Video Mail & Video Chat! > <http://www.juno.com/freeemail?refcd=JUTAGOUT1FREM0210> > --------------090107080000080401070707 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <html> <head> <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type"> </head> <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> Hi Mal<br> <br> Something to keep in mind if the product was intentionally designed to be operated on 240VAC here in 120VAC land then it will NOT have a neutral or 'grounded conductor' in code speak. <br> <br> 240VAC is generated here from either side of a center tapped transformer. The center tap is the neutral / grounded conductor. <br> <br> So for 240VAC here in NA, a neutral is not used but rather two 'hots' of opposite phase.<br> <br> In a system like this a quite normal way to make a functional control switch is to kill only one leg. As it is not considered a disconnect switch opening both hots is not required. The 'code' disconnect switch CAN be the upstream circuit breaker or the cord-set.<br> <br> So you may ask why the colour coding was still wrong? Likely the equipment was not UL or CSA certified for NA. Even then the colour coding is very weakly dealt with on in the the part 1 installation code and not really technically enforceable in equipment.<br> <br> Assuming the equipment was not designed for EU use they may have not considered this as a potential issue...<br> <br> 73 Scott<br> VE7TIL<br> <br> <br> <br> On 10/9/2011 6:25 PM, mal hamilton wrote: <blockquote cite="mid:002d01cc86eb$6f677730$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf" type="cite"> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"> <meta content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name="GENERATOR"> <style></style> <div><font face="Arial">Bob</font></div> <div><font face="Arial">If you look at a Dentron 2500 amplifier on the cct diagram the 230v mains cable, WHITE wire goes to the ON/OFF switch on amplifier then primary of HT transformer </font><font face="Arial">which to me is HOT and BLACK wire goes directly to the other side of primary winding, NEUTRAL and GREEN to chassis.</font></div> <div><font face="Arial">In the UK the switch is always in the LIVE (hot) wire and NEUTRAL direct to the appliance except it happens to be a double switch.</font></div> <div> </div> <div><font face="Arial">UK appliance BROWN live, BLUE neutral, plus an earth wire (3 wire appliance)</font></div> <div><font face="Arial">mal/g3kev</font></div> <div> </div> <blockquote dir="ltr" style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div> <div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="riese-k3djc@juno.com" href="mailto:riese-k3djc@juno.com">riese-k3djc@juno.com</a> </div> <div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" href="mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org">rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</a> </div> <div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, October 09, 2011 7:48 PM</div> <div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: LF: mains wires</div> <div><br> </div> <div>what I use to keep track</div> <div> </div> <div>Black is hot white is not</div> <div> </div> <div>Bob K3DJC</div> <div> </div> <div>On Sun, 9 Oct 2011 17:09:09 -0000 "mal hamilton" <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:g3kevmal@talktalk.net">g3kevmal@talktalk.net</a>> writes:</div> <blockquote dir="ltr" style="PADDING-LEFT: 10px; MARGIN-LEFT: 10px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid"> <div><font face="Arial">LF</font></div> <div><font face="Arial">I have a USA amplifier with 230v input. The mains wires are BLACK, WHITE, and GREEN</font></div> <div> </div> <div><font face="Arial">The cct diagram shows White as the live wire with amplifier mains switch in this line, Black goes to the other end directly to transformer primary</font></div> <div><font face="Arial">and Green to earth.</font></div> <div><font face="Arial">but</font></div> <div><font face="Arial">according to USA info the Black wire should be Live and White Neutral. </font></div> <div> </div> <div><font face="Arial">So beware !!!!!!!!!!!!!!</font></div> <div><font face="Arial">de g3kev</font></div> <div> </div> <div> </div> </blockquote> <font size="2"> <p>____________________________________________________________<br> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.juno.com/freeemail?refcd=JUTAGOUT1FREM0210">Get Free Email with Video Mail & Video Chat!</a></p> </font></blockquote> </blockquote> <br> </body> </html> --------------090107080000080401070707--