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Subject: Re: LF: mains wires
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Hi Mal

Something to keep in mind if the product was intentionally designed to 
be operated on 240VAC here in 120VAC land then it will NOT have a 
neutral or 'grounded conductor' in code speak.

240VAC is generated here from either side of a center tapped 
transformer.  The center tap is the neutral / grounded conductor.

So for 240VAC here in NA, a neutral is not used but rather two 'hots' of 
opposite phase.

In a system like this a quite normal way to make a functional control 
switch is to kill only one leg.  As it is not considered a disconnect 
switch opening both hots is not required.  The 'code' disconnect switch 
CAN be the upstream circuit breaker or the cord-set.

So you may ask why the colour coding was still wrong?   Likely the 
equipment was not UL or CSA certified for NA.  Even then the colour 
coding is very weakly dealt with on in the the part 1 installation code 
and not really technically enforceable in equipment.

Assuming the equipment was not designed for EU use they may have not 
considered this as a potential issue...

73 Scott
VE7TIL



On 10/9/2011 6:25 PM, mal hamilton wrote:
> Bob
> If you look at a Dentron 2500 amplifier on the cct diagram the 230v 
> mains cable,  WHITE  wire goes to the ON/OFF switch on amplifier then 
> primary of HT transformer which to me is HOT and BLACK wire goes 
> directly to the other side of primary winding, NEUTRAL and GREEN to 
> chassis.
> In the UK the switch is always in the LIVE (hot) wire and NEUTRAL 
> direct to the appliance except it happens to be a double switch.
> UK appliance BROWN live, BLUE neutral, plus an earth wire  (3 wire 
> appliance)
> mal/g3kev
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     *From:* riese-k3djc@juno.com <mailto:riese-k3djc@juno.com>
>     *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
>     <mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
>     *Sent:* Sunday, October 09, 2011 7:48 PM
>     *Subject:* Re: LF: mains wires
>
>     what I use to keep track
>     Black is hot white is not
>     Bob K3DJC
>     On Sun, 9 Oct 2011 17:09:09 -0000 "mal hamilton"
>     <g3kevmal@talktalk.net <mailto:g3kevmal@talktalk.net>> writes:
>
>         LF
>         I have a USA amplifier with 230v input. The mains wires are
>         BLACK, WHITE, and GREEN
>         The cct diagram shows White as the live wire with amplifier
>          mains switch in this line, Black goes to the other end
>         directly to transformer primary
>         and Green to earth.
>         but
>         according to USA info the Black wire should be Live and White
>         Neutral.
>         So beware !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>         de g3kev
>
>     ____________________________________________________________
>     Get Free Email with Video Mail & Video Chat!
>     <http://www.juno.com/freeemail?refcd=JUTAGOUT1FREM0210>
>


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    Hi Mal<br>
    <br>
    Something to keep in mind if the product was intentionally designed
    to be operated on 240VAC here in 120VAC land then it will NOT have a
    neutral or 'grounded conductor' in code speak.&nbsp; <br>
    <br>
    240VAC is generated here from either side of a center tapped
    transformer.&nbsp; The center tap is the neutral / grounded conductor.&nbsp; <br>
    <br>
    So for 240VAC here in NA, a neutral is not used but rather two
    'hots' of opposite phase.<br>
    <br>
    In a system like this a quite normal way to make a functional
    control switch is to kill only one leg.&nbsp; As it is not considered a
    disconnect switch opening both hots is not required.&nbsp; The 'code'
    disconnect switch CAN be the upstream circuit breaker or the
    cord-set.<br>
    <br>
    So you may ask why the colour coding was still wrong?&nbsp;&nbsp; Likely the
    equipment was not UL or CSA certified for NA.&nbsp; Even then the colour
    coding is very weakly dealt with on in the the part 1 installation
    code and not really technically enforceable in equipment.<br>
    <br>
    Assuming the equipment was not designed for EU use they may have not
    considered this as a potential issue...<br>
    <br>
    73 Scott<br>
    VE7TIL<br>
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    On 10/9/2011 6:25 PM, mal hamilton wrote:
    <blockquote cite="mid:002d01cc86eb$6f677730$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf"
      type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=ISO-8859-1">
      <meta content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name="GENERATOR">
      <style></style>
      <div><font face="Arial">Bob</font></div>
      <div><font face="Arial">If you look at a Dentron 2500 amplifier on
          the cct diagram the 230v mains cable, &nbsp;WHITE &nbsp;wire goes to the
          ON/OFF switch on amplifier then primary of HT transformer </font><font
          face="Arial">which to me is HOT and BLACK wire goes directly
          to the other side of primary winding, NEUTRAL and GREEN to
          chassis.</font></div>
      <div><font face="Arial">In the UK the switch is always in the LIVE
          (hot) wire and NEUTRAL direct to the appliance except it
          happens to be a double switch.</font></div>
      <div>&nbsp;</div>
      <div><font face="Arial">UK appliance BROWN live, BLUE neutral,
          plus an earth wire &nbsp;(3 wire appliance)</font></div>
      <div><font face="Arial">mal/g3kev</font></div>
      <div>&nbsp;</div>
      <blockquote dir="ltr" style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT:
        5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid;
        MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
        <div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
        <div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
          black"><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
            title="riese-k3djc@juno.com"
            href="mailto:riese-k3djc@juno.com">riese-k3djc@juno.com</a>
        </div>
        <div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a
            moz-do-not-send="true" title="rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org"
            href="mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org">rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</a>
        </div>
        <div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, October 09,
          2011 7:48 PM</div>
        <div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: LF: mains
          wires</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>what&nbsp;I use to keep track</div>
        <div>&nbsp;</div>
        <div>Black is hot white is not</div>
        <div>&nbsp;</div>
        <div>Bob K3DJC</div>
        <div>&nbsp;</div>
        <div>On Sun, 9 Oct 2011 17:09:09 -0000 "mal hamilton" &lt;<a
            moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:g3kevmal@talktalk.net">g3kevmal@talktalk.net</a>&gt;
          writes:</div>
        <blockquote dir="ltr" style="PADDING-LEFT: 10px; MARGIN-LEFT:
          10px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
          <div><font face="Arial">LF</font></div>
          <div><font face="Arial">I have a USA amplifier with 230v
              input. The mains wires are BLACK, WHITE, and GREEN</font></div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div><font face="Arial">The cct diagram shows White as the
              live wire with amplifier &nbsp;mains switch in this line, Black
              goes to the other end directly to transformer primary</font></div>
          <div><font face="Arial">and Green to earth.</font></div>
          <div><font face="Arial">but</font></div>
          <div><font face="Arial">according to USA info the Black wire
              should be Live and White Neutral. </font></div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div><font face="Arial">So beware !!!!!!!!!!!!!!</font></div>
          <div><font face="Arial">de g3kev</font></div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
        </blockquote>
        <font size="2">
          <p>____________________________________________________________<br>
            <a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="http://www.juno.com/freeemail?refcd=JUTAGOUT1FREM0210">Get
              Free Email with Video Mail &amp; Video Chat!</a></p>
        </font></blockquote>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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