Return-Path: Received: from mtain-dh05.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-dh05.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.65.25]) by air-dc08.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINDC084-86a64d7cd53b84; Sun, 13 Mar 2011 10:31:23 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-dh05.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id A5CE1380000B3; Sun, 13 Mar 2011 10:31:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1PymJF-0003gp-Gz for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 Mar 2011 14:30:17 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1PymJE-0003gg-Om for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 Mar 2011 14:30:16 +0000 Received: from out1.ip02ir2.opaltelecom.net ([62.24.128.238]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1PymJC-0003DX-Bx for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 Mar 2011 14:30:16 +0000 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AsgAAIpxfE1cGS9r/2dsb2JhbAAMC5hbDoh0mw0VqQKCfoJkBIF0jkY X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.62,311,1297036800"; d="scan'208,217";a="358683299" Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.2.2]) ([92.25.47.107]) by out1.ip02ir2.opaltelecom.net with ESMTP; 13 Mar 2011 14:30:08 +0000 Message-ID: <4D7CD4ED.4000801@talktalk.net> Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 14:30:05 +0000 From: "qrss@talktalk.net" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-GB; rv:1.9.2.15) Gecko/20110303 Thunderbird/3.1.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <006301cbe00d$762f0220$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> <4D7BF0D8.6030704@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <4D7C05EB.7090704@talktalk.net> <47AA7A077A074BAE875A773483289D66@White> <4D7C88F0.1070609@talktalk.net> <4D7CCCEE.6070805@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> In-Reply-To: <4D7CCCEE.6070805@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> X-Spam-Score: 1.4 (+) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,RATWARE_GECKO_BUILD=1.426 Subject: Re: LF: VLF traces Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------000602040903020200010503" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.6 required=5.0 tests=CELL_PHONE_BOOST,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d41194d7cd53919a3 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) --------------000602040903020200010503 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable :-) Yes, yes Stefan and an Anglicised colloquial spelling / usage:-)=20 aren't we awful ! I wondered if anyone would recognise, with those two words, a Philips=20 connection. 73 Eddie On 13/03/2011 13:55, Stefan Sch=E4fer wrote: > Hi Eddie, > > endenstuffa? You mean Endstufe (=3D power amplifier) ? :-) > > 73, Stefan > > Am 13.03.2011 10:05, schrieb qrss@talktalk.net: >> Yes that also went through my mind, I wonder if that was the=20 >> inspiration for Andy's choice of suffix. >> >> Funny, no abbreviated versions of German colloquial terms ever go=20 >> through my mind. Hmm I tell a lie... endenstuffa.... and Dutch....=20 >> Glowielampenfabriken... both are probably spelled wrongly:-) >> >> Eddie >> >> On 13/03/2011 00:51, Markus Vester wrote: >>> perhaps related to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boffin ?? >>> 73, Markus >>> >>> *From:* qrss@talktalk.net >>> *Sent:* Sunday, March 13, 2011 12:46 AM >>> *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 >>> >>> *Subject:* Re: LF: VLF traces >>> >>> A can of worms. >>> Some would say G9*** is a research and development licence and no=20 >>> G9's are Amateur calls. >>> */"G9 Plus two or three letters have been issued to research=20 >>> organisations" >>> /*However*/ >>> //"I used a G9 plus two callsign for research activities/*" >>> /*"About 5 years ago, I obtained GW9T for Wrexham ARS.*/" >>> Quotes are from MW1LCR >>> >>> So there is a bit of background on G9 calls. What I think Andy was=20 >>> doing was telling the story without using a normal Amateur callsign=20 >>> which may have been issued ie not an actual person, for the=20 >>> illustration. >>> >>> Or does Andy use G9BOF at work, I don't know. >>> >>> Eddie >>> >>> On 12/03/2011 22:42, Andy Talbot wrote: >>>> err... >>>> mmmm... >>>> perhaps someone else may care to explain some of our special=20 >>>> reserved callsigns :-) >>>> 'JNT >>>> >>>> >>>> 2011/3/12 Stefan Sch=E4fer >>> > >>>> >>>> Andy, >>>> >>>> I agree 100% but who is G9BOF? >>>> >>>> 73, Stefan >>>> >>>> Am 11.03.2011 23:28, schrieb Andy Talbot: >>>>> Can I point out that a carier that appears at a known time and >>>>> on a known frequency IS modulated. It is on off keyed.=20 >>>>> (Well...off/on anyway :-) The only way that a carrier can >>>>> be unmodulated is if it has been there since the beginning of=20 >>>>> (RF)time and is never switched off, ever, never, before the >>>>> end of (RF)time. Its appearance or disappearance is >>>>> information; what that info means depends on how it has been >>>>> coded. >>>>> Any switching, at all, introduces modulation and widens the >>>>> bandwidth, and therefore counts as a means of identification >>>>> if the meaning of the on/off is pre-arranged. >>>>> In comms-theory-speak If G9BOF makes the announcement "I'll >>>>> be transmitting on Sunday at 1300z on 8910.0004Hz" he has now >>>>> generated a codebook. The appearance of the carrier at that >>>>> point in time indicates a single bit of information, which by >>>>> reference to the code boook means G9BOF is sending a '1'. No >>>>> carrier detected,he is sending a '0', or there has been a bit >>>>> error. In other words, no error correction.or detection has >>>>> been performed. If G9BOF now makes another announcement that >>>>> "I'll switch it off at 2358z" he has added another entry to >>>>> the code book. If the carrier really does go off then, the >>>>> two bits of information together make a dual-redundant pair, >>>>> the minimum needed for error detection. >>>>> If G9BOF also makes the statement that "my signal is stable >>>>> and accurate to 1mHz" and another signal appears in the >>>>> passband that is 2mHz away, or wobbles by 1.5mHz, then is is >>>>> not G9BOF, and error detection will flag it as not valid. If >>>>> a receiving station cannot detect this error, and incorrectly >>>>> assesses the carrier then the Rx has used the wrong codebook, >>>>> and therefore cannot be deemed to be listening to G9BOF at all. >>>>> All a rather extreme and somewhat petty example of coding >>>>> theory and error detection, but its exactly the same as >>>>> simple Hamming codes all the way thorough to reed Solomon.=20 >>>>> And... I'm not sure how G9BOF getting his frequency or time >>>>> wrong would fit into the coding theory. >>>>> So, conclusion, a carrier as stable and on the exact >>>>> frequency as stated, at the right time is going to be valid. =20 >>>>> If you have no way of proving it really is as stable as >>>>> quoted, or in the right place, /*you've no right to question >>>>> its validity*/. >>>>> And anyway, how many spurious signals can even give any >>>>> pretence to being stable in these terms - if you think they >>>>> are, get a better receiver. We are talking about 0.1ppm over >>>>> the duration of a signalling element as a minimum frequency >>>>> stability requirement for most serious VLF through LF >>>>> signalling - which means a quite good TCXO, an average to >>>>> middling OCXO or ideally a locked source. If you can't >>>>> manage this, do not cry 'foul' when others do. >>>>> Andy >>>>> www.g4jnt.com >>>>> >>>>> On 11 March 2011 21:30, Markus Vester >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Dear Mal, >>>>> >>>>> with all due respect, I very much disagree here. >>>>> >>>>> Whenever I see a clear trace appear at the right time and >>>>> within a milliHz >>>>> of a confirmed and correctly calibrated frequency, I have >>>>> hardly a doubt >>>>> about the validity of the reception. Even more so if the >>>>> transmission can be >>>>> verified by comparison to a calibrated grabber in another >>>>> location. >>>>> >>>>> It seems that the G3KEV antenna does have excellent >>>>> sensitivity at VLF. It >>>>> would be fantastic if you could augment that with a >>>>> stable, properly >>>>> calibrated, and narrowband reception system. SpecLab has >>>>> made that so easy >>>>> now - throw out the wildly drifting "receiver", connect >>>>> your antenna >>>>> directly to the soundcard instead, lock to one of your MSK >>>>> neighbours (GBZ >>>>> or GQD), and your in the game. >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> Markus (DF6NM) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: mal hamilton >>>>> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 5:57 PM >>>>> To: rsgb >>>>> Subject: LF: VLF traces >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I can see a couple of vy weak traces around 8970 but this >>>>> is no guarantee >>>>> who it might be because there is no ID. Frequency alone is >>>>> not a VALID >>>>> report- it could be anything. >>>>> G3KEV >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> --------------000602040903020200010503 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit :-) Yes, yes Stefan and an Anglicised colloquial spelling / usage :-)   aren't we awful !

I wondered if anyone would recognise, with those two words, a Philips connection.

73 Eddie

On 13/03/2011 13:55, Stefan Schäfer wrote:
Hi Eddie,

endenstuffa? You mean Endstufe (= power amplifier) ? :-)

73, Stefan

Am 13.03.2011 10:05, schrieb qrss@talktalk.net:
Yes that also went through my mind, I wonder if that was the inspiration for Andy's choice of suffix.

Funny, no abbreviated versions of German colloquial terms ever go through my mind. Hmm I tell a lie... endenstuffa.... and Dutch.... Glowielampenfabriken... both are probably spelled wrongly :-)

Eddie

On 13/03/2011 00:51, Markus Vester wrote:
 
73, Markus
 

Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 12:46 AM
Subject: Re: LF: VLF traces

A can of worms.
Some would say G9*** is a research and development licence and no G9's are Amateur calls.
"G9 Plus two or three letters have been issued to research organisations"
However
"I used a G9 plus two callsign for research activities"
"About 5 years ago, I obtained GW9T for Wrexham ARS."
Quotes are from MW1LCR

So there is a bit of background on G9 calls. What I think Andy was doing was telling the story without using a normal Amateur callsign which may have been issued ie not an actual person, for the illustration.

Or does Andy use G9BOF at work, I don't know.

Eddie

On 12/03/2011 22:42, Andy Talbot wrote:
err...
mmmm...
 
perhaps someone else may care to explain some of our special reserved callsigns :-)
 
'JNT


 
2011/3/12 Stefan Schäfer <schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de>
Andy,

I agree 100% but who is G9BOF?

73, Stefan

Am 11.03.2011 23:28, schrieb Andy Talbot:
Can I point out that a carier that appears at a known time and on a known frequency IS modulated.   It is on off keyed.  (Well...off/on anyway :-)    The only way that a carrier can be unmodulated is if it has been there since the beginning of  (RF)time and is never switched off, ever, never, before the end of (RF)time.   Its appearance or disappearance is information;  what that info means depends on how it has been coded.
 
Any switching, at all, introduces modulation and widens the bandwidth, and therefore counts as a means of identification if the meaning of the on/off is pre-arranged.  
 
In comms-theory-speak  If G9BOF makes the announcement "I'll be transmitting on Sunday at 1300z on 8910.0004Hz" he has now generated a codebook.   The appearance of the carrier at that point in time indicates a single bit of information, which by reference to the code boook means G9BOF is sending a '1'.  No carrier detected,he is sending a '0', or there has been a bit error.   In other words, no error correction.or detection has been performed.   If G9BOF now makes another announcement that "I'll switch it off at 2358z" he has added another entry to the code book.  If the carrier really does go off then,  the two bits of information  together make a dual-redundant pair, the minimum needed for error detection.  
 
If G9BOF also makes the statement that "my signal is stable and accurate  to 1mHz" and another signal appears in the passband that is 2mHz away, or wobbles by 1.5mHz, then is is not G9BOF, and error detection will flag it as not valid.   If a receiving station cannot detect this error, and incorrectly assesses the carrier then the Rx has used the wrong codebook, and therefore cannot be deemed to be listening to G9BOF at all.  
 
All a rather extreme and somewhat petty  example of coding theory and error detection,  but its exactly the same as simple Hamming codes all the way thorough to reed Solomon.  And...  I'm not sure how G9BOF getting his frequency or time wrong would fit into the coding theory.
 
So, conclusion, a carrier as stable and on the exact frequency as stated, at the right time is going to be valid.   If you have no way of proving it really is as stable as quoted, or in the right place, you've no right to question its validity.
 
And anyway, how many spurious signals can even give any pretence to being stable in these terms - if you think they are, get a better receiver.   We are talking about 0.1ppm over the duration of a signalling element as a minimum frequency stability requirement for most serious VLF through LF signalling - which means a quite good TCXO, an average to middling OCXO or ideally a locked source.   If you can't manage this, do not cry 'foul' when others do.
 
Andy
 
 
 

 
On 11 March 2011 21:30, Markus Vester <markusvester@aol.com> wrote:
Dear Mal,

with all due respect, I very much disagree here.

Whenever I see a clear trace appear at the right time and within a milliHz
of a confirmed and correctly calibrated frequency, I have hardly a doubt
about the validity of the reception. Even more so if the transmission can be
verified by comparison to a calibrated grabber in another location.

It seems that the G3KEV antenna does have excellent sensitivity at VLF. It
would be fantastic if you could augment that with a stable, properly
calibrated, and narrowband reception system. SpecLab has made that so easy
now - throw out the wildly drifting "receiver", connect your antenna
directly to the soundcard instead, lock to one of your MSK neighbours (GBZ
or GQD), and your in the game.

Best regards,
Markus (DF6NM)


From: mal hamilton
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 5:57 PM
To: rsgb
Subject: LF: VLF traces


I can see a couple of vy weak traces around 8970 but this is no guarantee
who it might be because there is no ID. Frequency alone is not a VALID
report- it could be anything.
G3KEV








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