Message-ID: <4CA116AA.5010905@telus.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 22:11:54 +0000
From: Scott Tilley <sthed475@telus.net>
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To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
References: <AANLkTinsoxgfUWU1o-JxrpVn0fcDhbWDMdO0BhD7gpfV@mail.gmail.com> <4CA0FB40.5060404@telus.net> <4CA100C6.3080505@iup.uni-heidelberg.de>
In-Reply-To: <4CA100C6.3080505@iup.uni-heidelberg.de>
Subject: Re: LF: Loops on TX
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  Hi Stefan / Group

Yes EZNEC can do this but knowing the actual relationship would be nice=20
to play with the math on a more primal level to 'understand' the=20
issues.  So, if someone can point us toward a suitable reference PLEASE!

For me a loop was the only viable option short of breaking out the=20
chainsaw and backhoe...  Then I'd need a good divorce lawyer...

A loop made for a very nice compromise at my QTH give the availability=20
of tall trees and the fact it blended into the surroundings (stealth)=20
and it actually works the way it should.  Given we have a limited EIRP=20
who cares that a vertical may be able to do more for the given input=20
power...  Kinda a pointless debate.  What matters more is knowing your=20
RF is radiating into the far field and not warming the trees...

RE: Conductors:

RG213 is expensive and its dielectric and physical wear characteristics=20
seemed not as good as a common aluminum power conductor.   Copper=20
conductors are 4 to 5 times more expensive then AL and 4 times heavier=20
for the same resistivity.  Here, #2 AWG AL is $1/meter new and this=20
conductor can be found surplus for much less as it is used for neutral=20
support service drops to houses and commercial buildings...  The=20
insulation is very robust and can deal with rubbing on trees it is=20
sunlight resistant and has a very high dielectric strength. The peak=20
voltage on my system exceeds 7KV and no sign of breakdown even during=20
heavy rains.   The conductor is also light and easy to work with. =20
Another interesting item I noticed as the measured RF resistance and the=
=20
calculated where much different.  The conductor I used has seven strands=
=20
(see attached).  The way these are arranged seems to create much more=20
surface area and a much lower Rac then calculated from a circular area=20
which RG213 would be closer to.

Food for thought.  Although a really good quality coax with silver=20
shield conductors will certainly produce a low Rac too as Warren's=20
experiments can clearly attest but this comes at a cost in dollars for=20
such high quality cable.  The compromise is the shield does not have a=20
very high dielectric strength material insulating it form tree branches=20
extra, unlike the center conductor...

The real advantage of a loop is it performs as modeled in pretty much=20
any installation site without much thought to ground, just keep it away=20
:-)  A vertical is very environmentally sensitive and will only perform=20
at its best in very limited sites and requires the site be tailored to=20
it in most cases including much work on the ground system which makes up=
=20
half the antenna.  The other advantage of the loop is it makes a=20
wonderful RX antenna even in the presence of local QRM.  I found rather=20
empirically that the large TX loop performs better at local QRM=20
rejection then the smaller RX  loops I have on site and certainly better=
=20
then any E-field antenna I have tried here.  Having said that the best=20
RX antenna I have ever used on LF was a tall vertical installed on the=20
ocean in a QRM free spot. But how many folks can do that at a convenient=
=20
operating location?

In time I hope to 'cross' my loop with another near identical sized one=20
to allow for phasing the two to create a 'beam' of sorts.  As I have=20
lots of convenient trees to support this so it is viable here and will=20
improve my RX situation as well...

My experiments with verticals have come to an end at this QTH.  Not to=20
say that in the future I will not experiment with them at other QTHs but=
=20
they simply don't suit this QTH.  That's the secret in my opinion of=20
getting a decent signal out is finding an antenna that maximizes the=20
potential of a particular QTH not following a dogma certain mal-contents=
=20
seem to preach...

73 Scott
VE7TIL
http://www3.telus.net/sthed/argo/











On 9/27/2010 8:38 PM, Stefan Sch=E4fer wrote:
> LF,
>
> Am 27.09.2010 22:14, schrieb Scott Tilley:
>> If someone knows the relationships for how a loop behaves over ground=
=20
>> I'd love to see them too!
>
> Can't this be done in EZNEC?
>
> Scott, this sound really impressive. I have thought your loop area is=20
> even higher. So, if i can find and climb some trees, i could try to=20
> test a closed loop as well. Sounds like an alternative, maybe.
>
> What about RG213 as the loop conductor, i mean the shielding? If the=20
> supports are not spaced to much, like some trees, this could work.=20
> Starting with a small wire, carrying a bigger one and so on. Oh dear,=20
> so many ideas, help!
>
> 73, Stefan

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    Hi Stefan / Group<br>
    <br>
    Yes EZNEC can do this but knowing the actual relationship would be
    nice to play with the math on a more primal level to 'understand'
    the issues.&nbsp; So, if someone can point us toward a suitable reference
    PLEASE!<br>
    <br>
    For me a loop was the only viable option short of breaking out the
    chainsaw and backhoe...&nbsp; Then I'd need a good divorce lawyer...<br>
    <br>
    A loop made for a very nice compromise at my QTH give the
    availability of tall trees and the fact it blended into the
    surroundings (stealth) and it actually works the way it should.&nbsp;
    Given we have a limited EIRP who cares that a vertical may be able
    to do more for the given input power...&nbsp; Kinda a pointless debate.&nbsp;
    What matters more is knowing your RF is radiating into the far field
    and not warming the trees...<br>
    <br>
    RE: Conductors:<br>
    <br>
    RG213 is expensive and its dielectric and physical wear
    characteristics seemed not as good as a common aluminum power
    conductor.&nbsp;&nbsp; Copper conductors are 4 to 5 times more expensive then
    AL and 4 times heavier for the same resistivity.&nbsp; Here, #2 AWG AL is
    $1/meter new and this conductor can be found surplus for much less
    as it is used for neutral support service drops to houses and
    commercial buildings...&nbsp; The insulation is very robust and can deal
    with rubbing on trees it is sunlight resistant and has a very high
    dielectric strength. The peak voltage on my system exceeds 7KV and
    no sign of breakdown even during heavy rains.&nbsp;&nbsp; The conductor is
    also light and easy to work with.&nbsp; Another interesting item I
    noticed as the measured RF resistance and the calculated where much
    different.&nbsp; The conductor I used has seven strands (see attached).&nbsp;
    The way these are arranged seems to create much more surface area
    and a much lower Rac then calculated from a circular area which
    RG213 would be closer to.&nbsp; <br>
    <br>
    Food for thought.&nbsp; Although a really good quality coax with silver
    shield conductors will certainly produce a low Rac too as Warren's
    experiments can clearly attest but this comes at a cost in dollars
    for such high quality cable.&nbsp; The compromise is the shield does not
    have a very high dielectric strength material insulating it form
    tree branches extra, unlike the center conductor...<br>
    <br>
    The real advantage of a loop is it performs as modeled in pretty
    much any installation site without much thought to ground, just keep
    it away :-)&nbsp; A vertical is very environmentally sensitive and will
    only perform at its best in very limited sites and requires the site
    be tailored to it in most cases including much work on the ground
    system which makes up half the antenna.&nbsp; The other advantage of the
    loop is it makes a wonderful RX antenna even in the presence of
    local QRM.&nbsp; I found rather empirically that the large TX loop
    performs better at local QRM rejection then the smaller RX&nbsp; loops I
    have on site and certainly better then any E-field antenna I have
    tried here.&nbsp; Having said that the best RX antenna I have ever used
    on LF was a tall vertical installed on the ocean in a QRM free spot.
    But how many folks can do that at a convenient operating location?&nbsp;
    <br>
    <br>
    In time I hope to 'cross' my loop with another near identical sized
    one to allow for phasing the two to create a 'beam' of sorts.&nbsp; As I
    have lots of convenient trees to support this so it is viable here
    and will improve my RX situation as well...<br>
    <br>
    My experiments with verticals have come to an end at this QTH.&nbsp; Not
    to say that in the future I will not experiment with them at other
    QTHs but they simply don't suit this QTH.&nbsp; That's the secret in my
    opinion of getting a decent signal out is finding an antenna that
    maximizes the potential of a particular QTH not following a dogma
    certain mal-contents seem to preach...<br>
    <br>
    73 Scott<br>
    VE7TIL<br>
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www3.telus.net/sthed/argo/">http://www3.telus.net/sthed/argo/</a><br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    On 9/27/2010 8:38 PM, Stefan Sch&auml;fer wrote:
    <blockquote cite="mid:4CA100C6.3080505@iup.uni-heidelberg.de"        type="cite">
      <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"          http-equiv="Content-Type">
      LF,<br>
      <br>
      Am 27.09.2010 22:14, schrieb Scott Tilley:
      <blockquote cite="mid:4CA0FB40.5060404@telus.net" type="cite">
        <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"            http-equiv="Content-Type">
        If someone knows the relationships for how a loop behaves over
        ground
        I'd love to see them too!<br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      Can't this be done in EZNEC?<br>
      <br>
      Scott, this sound really impressive. I have thought your loop area
      is
      even higher. So, if i can find and climb some trees, i could try
      to
      test a closed loop as well. Sounds like an alternative, maybe. <br>
      <br>
      What about RG213 as the loop conductor, i mean the shielding? If
      the
      supports are not spaced to much, like some trees, this could work.
      Starting with a small wire, carrying a bigger one and so on. Oh
      dear,
      so many ideas, help!<br>
      <br>
      73, Stefan<br>
    </blockquote>
  </body>
</html>

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