Message-ID: <4952C68A.7080608@telus.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 15:32:26 -0800
From: Scott Tilley <sthed475@telus.net>
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Subject: Re: LF: Re: Re: Why WSPR when you can SHOUT!
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Mal

WSPR was simply designed as an automated propagation monitoring mode 
that was originally optimized for HF use, nothing more nothing less.  It 
works pretty well for what it was designed to do.  Unlike CW, WSPR copy 
is only printed when the system knows it is 100% about it...  And most 
importantly it was never designed or intended to replace CW.  It is 
simply another mode.  Its fade performance is directly related to the 
period of the expected fading.  It works very well with rapid fading.  
If you understood the nature of its encoding you'd understand my 
comments, but you don't so no point in going further...

Don't like it?  Don't use it as you have nothing to add to the discussion.

Again do the research then comment.

You only hear what you want, so there is no point is discussing this 
further as it only serves to entertain a lonely old man on Christmas Eve.

Merry Christmas,
Scott
VE7TIL

mal hamilton wrote:
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Tilley" <sthed475@telus.net>
> To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 7:17 PM
> Subject: LF: Re: Why WSPR when you can SHOUT!
>
>
> Please explain to me what WSPR is able to do that CW cannot do. Under 
> fade conditions last night the wspr signal was not printing, in spite 
> of the fact that the traces were visible. Had this basic carrier been 
> keyed on/off in cw mode it would have been perfectly readable.
> Only when the signal peaked strongly did it print out. So wspr is not 
> a substitute for cw under poor propagation conditions where there is a 
> lot of fade.
> Also accurate frequency and timing is another hurdle in wspr mode but 
> not so in CW.
> You agree the mode is not satisfactory under fade conditions so what 
> are its advantages, none as far as I can make out.
> For a new mode to be successful it must have advantages and be an 
> improvement over what it is supposed to replacing.
> Please stick to the discussion in hand and not go off at a tangent or 
> be abusive because you disagree with another persons point of view.
> In this debate I am merely pointing out what I am able to observe when 
> watching a WSPR transmission and compare it with a similar CW 
> transmission.
> I am not concerned about who invented or discovered the system nor get 
> involved in personalities. My remit is to discuss the merits or 
> otherwise of the suitability of WSPR for use in the MF band versus 
> other modes.
> G3KEV
>
>
>
>> I have no issues with CW as a mode and periodically enjoy using it
>> myself, it is just one FUN aspect of the hobby.
>>
>>
>> The key to understanding is that all of these modes are tailor made for
>> specific bands and operating conditions and operational purposes.  Hence
>> the recent 'experiments' on 600m with WSPR.  In my opinion, what you may
>> be noticing is the need for an adjustment in the mode's characteristics
>> to deal with long duration fading on the MF and LF bands. As I observed
>> similar results on Jay's signal the other night.
>>
>>
>>
>> 73 Scott
>> VE7TIL
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> mal hamilton wrote:
>>>
>>> The software package that I am using states VHF/UHF and this includes
>>> WSPR mode WSJT 7.02
>>> As a professional Radio Office for a life time I have used every
>>> communications mode that has ever existed over the past 50 years.
>>> You must have missed this info in recent emails. I make the point
>>> again that CW has not been bettered in the radio amateur context for
>>> exchanging short messages, reports etc in a poor signalling 
>>> environment.
>>> Most of the current modes are reinvented or alterations to what has
>>> gone before and taking advantage of modern sound cards and appliance
>>> operated computers. One difference now is that there is less operator
>>> involvement the PC does all the work and often unattended.
>>> These methods are not amateur radio but appliance operator systems
>>> like internet exchanges, mobile phones etc.
>>> There will be no amateur radio in another 50 years, keep your ears to
>>> the ground so many others are saying the same thing.
>>> If you need any advice or help with any system old or new just ask and
>>> I will be delighted to help.
>>> G3KEV
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Tilley" <sthed475@telus.net>
>>> To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 6:05 PM
>>> Subject: Why WSPR when you can SHOUT! was Re: LF: wspr
>>>
>>>
>>>> Mal
>>>>
>>>> WSPR was NOT designed for VHF/UHF and again if you could read you'd 
>>>> know
>>>> that after you had read the documentation I referred you to.  It was
>>>> designed specifically for HF use in a high QSB environment and it 
>>>> works
>>>> very well there.  In fact, it was designed with 30m in mind and the 
>>>> QRPP
>>>> beacons that operate there.  I won't bother explaining further as you
>>>> don't seem to get the basic premises of signal theory and the 
>>>> techniques
>>>> employed for the design rationale of the mode.
>>>>
>>>> Also have a look here for more info on WSPR and the rationale for the
>>>> mode:
>>>> http://wsprnet.org/drupal/
>>>>
>>>> Before I will engage you further in a dialog about this or any other
>>>> mode I suggest you do some homework and learn how these modes work.
>>>> Like learning CW it takes time and dedication to understand the
>>>> technical and operating requirements for these modes.  Just because 
>>>> you
>>>> can pound a key doesn't mean you have the right stuff to make any form
>>>> of meaningful judgment about this topic.
>>>>
>>>> I suggest you stop wasting bandwidth here and do some learning.   And
>>>> then join the dialog with something meaningful.
>>>>
>>>> 73 Scott
>>>> VE7TIL
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> mal hamilton wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I did not ask a question about filtering !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>>> Oh but you did old man.
>>>>
>>>>> What I said was why use SSB mode which is 3 khz wide for a 6hz/200 hz
>>>>> wide signal when one could take advantage of the receiver narrow CW
>>>>> filter
>>>> We do!  But it isn't necessary most of the time!!!!  I told you why
>>>> earlier...  I use my 300Hz filter most of the time with WSPR to 
>>>> keep LID
>>>> CW ops out of the passband.
>>>>
>>>>> , and of course this is filtered further by manipulation of the
>>>>> soundcard by software. This is old hat technology and not new.
>>>>> WSPR was engineered for VHF/UHF with plenty of frequency spectrum
>>>>> available and not MF/LF
>>>>
>>>> WRONG!
>>>>> squeezed into a 3 khz slot along with other more robust modes
>>>>> I am not opposed to any particular transmisson MODE but merely
>>>>> pointing out that the advantage claimed by some for WSPR is not
>>>>> justified in some cases and my recent observations indicate that I
>>>>> could have read the transmitted signal had it been ON/OFF CW, instead
>>>>> I had to wait ages for the signal to improve before text printed. 
>>>>> This
>>>>> was the case last night with WE2XGR where the 2 minute interval trace
>>>>> was good enough to be read in on/off mode CW but not strong enough to
>>>>> print most of the time due to slow fade(QSB)
>>>>
>>>> You don't have enough experience or knowledge based on you comments to
>>>> intelligently comment on this in my opinion.
>>>>> I might even research WSPR further for comparison purposes but I
>>>>> cannot imagine that I will get a print out first before I see a 
>>>>> trace.
>>>> You have pretty high expectations for the mode!  I have never heard of
>>>> any mode that you could decode without being able to see some form of
>>>> trace.  Perhaps you're one of these CW op types that has ESP and has
>>>> QSOs with the little DX stations in your head?  What don't like the 
>>>> fact
>>>> there is something in the world that can quantify reality?
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> G3KEV
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Tilley" 
>>>>> <sthed475@telus.net>
>>>>> To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 5:00 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: LF: wspr
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> If you could read you would do some research at K1JT's wonderful
>>>>>> website:
>>>>>> http://www.physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/K1JT/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joe has laboured for many a year on similar projects and has written
>>>>>> much about his application of the art.  What you will find is that
>>>>>> research into communication theory that started with CW has taken us
>>>>>> here...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To answer your specific question the filtering is done in software.
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> DSP is done in your PC, thereby making filtering in the radio 
>>>>>> somewhat
>>>>>> redundant unless you have strong neighbours in the passband.  So
>>>>>> using a
>>>>>> wide SSB filter and the radio in USB makes for easy math in ones 
>>>>>> head.
>>>>>> Yes, we digital types use our heads from time to time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Often with modes like JT65 used on EME and now quite popular on 
>>>>>> HF one
>>>>>> wants as much bandwidth as possible in the receiver so you can 
>>>>>> monitor
>>>>>> up to the entire band in real time.  So lots of raw bandwidth 
>>>>>> into the
>>>>>> computer is a good thing...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All BS aside, you may find the technology very interesting to study
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> you may find that what you discover is that the spirit of the CW
>>>>>> operator of old is alive and well just evolving with the times.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CW will never die as it has a rich history but it shouldn't be 
>>>>>> allowed
>>>>>> to impede the growth of new modes and technology.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You should build yourself a Softrock SDR receiver or even a small
>>>>>> transceiver kit and witness a true revolution in radio 
>>>>>> technology.  My
>>>>>> little 40/30m rig allows me to watch the entire band of either in 
>>>>>> real
>>>>>> time.  With some new software you can monitor all of the CW QSOs at
>>>>>> once...  Pretty cool.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not to mention you can plug a key into the little box and do what 
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> love most and work'm.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 73 Scott
>>>>>> VE7TIL
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> mal hamilton wrote:
>>>>>>> If recent published info is correct, this specifies a bandwidth of
>>>>>>> 6hz
>>>>>>> why is USB with a bandwidth of 3 khz necessary to receive this
>>>>>>> transmission.
>>>>>>> Surely it would be obvious that CW mode was more appropriate where
>>>>>>> one could use a narrow filter and dsp processor of a few hertz.
>>>>>>> I have asked this question before but never got an answer.
>>>>>>> g3kev
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1862 - Release Date:
>>>>> 12/23/2008 12:08 PM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1862 - Release Date:
>>> 12/23/2008 12:08 PM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1862 - Release Date: 
> 12/23/2008 12:08 PM
>
>
>