Return-Path: X-Spam-DCC: paranoid 1102; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL, HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE,SPF_PASS autolearn=no version=3.1.3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by paranoid.lipkowski.org (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id u2RL4mMV026066 for ; Sun, 27 Mar 2016 23:04:48 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1akHo8-0005EE-5v for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 27 Mar 2016 22:01:12 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1akHo7-0005E5-Q1 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 27 Mar 2016 22:01:11 +0100 Received: from smtpout5.wanadoo.co.uk ([80.12.242.80] helo=smtpout.wanadoo.co.uk) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1akHo5-0003BW-J5 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 27 Mar 2016 22:01:10 +0100 Received: from AGB ([109.180.89.46]) by mwinf5d67 with ME id b9171s00B1008Zp03917S5; Sun, 27 Mar 2016 23:01:08 +0200 X-ME-Helo: AGB X-ME-Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2016 23:01:08 +0200 X-ME-IP: 109.180.89.46 Message-ID: <434E9DBE8577479EA674195FB7F3FA2E@AGB> From: "Graham" To: References: <094E96255B2D4EE9886317C115E7E5D9@Clemens0811> <0B13EDC9CB494E698C8EA963619C9032@White> In-Reply-To: <0B13EDC9CB494E698C8EA963619C9032@White> Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2016 22:01:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 X-Scan-Signature: b183672d2d39521dd5e5027c4d070614 Subject: Re: LF: WSPR sidebands Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0121_01D18874.2A017EE0" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 10.1.3.11 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 7494 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0121_01D18874.2A017EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Opera's AM key-clicks , VERY True , there has to be an associated bandwidth, however , hard = non-conditioned on off keying of a carrier will produce , = key-click's , this was the subject of a e-mail , sent to me some = time back, over my TX bandwidth on 477 /op8 . Notably , the email enquired as to how my Tx b/w was in the = order of 10 MHz or less and not the mode usual 400 / 500 MHz=20 Its quite simple, I use the audio drive , via a totally linear = TX path ma1723 > skanti amp=20 What appears to be a simple task, is often quite complex , as is = the use of the R-PI as a rf carrier source=20 The integrity of the timing loops [ as before] are compromised by = the higher order IRQ requests , hence setting a flag high/low , = with a executed code routine to generate a 'stable' carrier source = cannot be relied on. In the development of the Opera R-PI tx code , the action of the = IRQ's could be observed as random noise , acting cycle by cycle , = hence any long persistence in the spectrum plot , simply masked the = spurs , however , the Opera dsp returned varying s/n levels for = the same test set up , indicating the channel background noise = varied. [ opera decoder is a sampling system running far faster than = the data rate ] The project was shelved , other than for hard on-off keying of a = free running carrier , in this the clock jitter is of no = consequence. =20 73-G, =20 From: Markus Vester=20 Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 8:59 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: LF: WSPR sidebands Hi Clemens, the 1.465 Hz spaced lines around the strong WSPR signals are "clicks" = from the periodic frequency switching, they are supposed to be there. = But as the switching is phase-continuous, these FSK sidebands fall off = much more rapidly than Opera's AM key-clicks. The 100 Hz lines should normally disappear if a properly regulated = ripple-free power supply is used for the TX. Has DJ0ABR rechecked the = voltage ripple after the change?=20 But there may be other subtle causes for low-level 100 Hz modulation = both in the TX and RX chains, e.g. - hum injection into PLL oscillators causing phase modulation, - ground impedance modulated by the rectifier diodes in the power = supply, - modulated scatter from traditional flourescent tubes (more at VHF = though), =20 - noise blanker acting on periodic interference (eg. SMPS or PLC), - hum injection into the audio chain. Spurs from the DDS would not be impossible but usually at lower level, = and unlikely to exactly hit 100 Hz. Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) From: Clemens Paul=20 Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 8:47 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org ; rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk=20 Subject: RE: Cheap and nasty sources - was LF: DK7FC WSPR bad quality = problem Hello all, I've been watching the 100Hz sideband WSPR multi-decodes also from the = other two strong stations on MW, DH5RAE and DB0ABR.They are located about 65km from me and generate = S9++dB signals here. The deoded sidebands are also about 40dB down. DB0ABR has tried a different power supply to no avail and both believe = that the DDS synthesizer is the culprit. It is a AD9859,see http://www.dj0abr.de/index_english.html I have added a perseus screenshot with a bin width of 0.24Hz showing = strange lines in their signal. I'm not sure if this is the DDS spectrum what we see here. 73 Clemens DL4RAJ=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0121_01D18874.2A017EE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Opera's AM key-clicks ,
 
VERY  True , there  has to be an associated  = bandwidth,=20 however ,  hard  non-conditioned on off  = keying =20 of  a  carrier  will  produce , key-click's  , = this was=20 the  subject of a  e-mail , sent to  me some time  = back,=20 over my  TX bandwidth  on  477 /op8 .
 
Notably , the  email  enquired as  to  = how  my Tx=20 b/w  was  in the  order of  10 MHz or  less and = not  the  mode usual  400 / 500 MHz
 
Its quite  simple,  I use  the  audio  = drive =20 , via a  totally  linear  TX path  ma1723 = >=20 skanti amp
 
What appears to be a  simple  task,   is often=20 quite  complex , as is the  use of the  R-PI as = a  rf=20 carrier  source
 
The  integrity of the  timing loops [ as=20 before] are  compromised  by the  higher order  = IRQ=20 requests ,  hence  setting  a  flag=20 high/low , with  a  executed code routine =  to =20 generate a 'stable'  carrier  source  cannot be relied = on.
 
In the  development of the  Opera  R-PI tx code = , =20 the  action  of the  IRQ's could be  observed as=20 random  noise , acting   cycle  by =20 cycle , hence any  long persistence  in the  = spectrum=20 plot , simply  masked the  spurs , however , the  = Opera =20 dsp  returned varying  s/n  levels  for the  = same =20 test  set up , indicating the  channel  background noise = varied.=20 [ opera decoder  is a  sampling system running far faster than = the  data  rate ]
 
The  project was  shelved , other than for  = hard=20 on-off  keying  of a  free  running  carrier = ,  in=20 this the  clock  jitter is  of no consequence. =  
 
73-G, 
 
 
 
 
 
 

From: Markus Vester
Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 8:59 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: LF: WSPR sidebands

Hi Clemens,
 
the 1.465 Hz spaced lines around the = strong WSPR=20 signals are "clicks" from the periodic frequency switching, = they are=20 supposed to be there. But as the switching is phase-continuous, these = FSK=20 sidebands fall off much more rapidly than Opera's AM = key-clicks.
 
The 100 Hz lines should normally = disappear if a=20 properly regulated ripple-free power supply is used for the TX. Has=20 DJ0ABR rechecked the voltage ripple after the change?
 
But there may be other subtle = causes for=20 low-level 100 Hz modulation both in = the TX and RX=20 chains, e.g.
- hum injection into PLL oscillators = causing phase=20 modulation,
- ground impedance modulated by the = rectifier=20 diodes in the power supply,
- modulated scatter from traditional = flourescent=20 tubes (more at VHF though), 
- noise blanker acting on = periodic interference (eg. SMPS or PLC),
- hum injection into the audio = chain.
 
Spurs from the DDS would not be = impossible but=20 usually at lower level, and unlikely to exactly hit 100=20 Hz.
 
Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)
 

Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 8:47 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= ; rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups= .co.uk=20
Subject: RE: Cheap and nasty sources - was LF: DK7FC WSPR = bad=20 quality problem

Hello=20 all,

I've been watching the 100Hz sideband WSPR multi-decodes = also from=20 the other two strong stations on MW,
DH5RAE and DB0ABR.They are = located about=20 65km from me and generate  S9++dB signals here.
The deoded = sidebands are=20 also about 40dB down.
DB0ABR has tried a different power supply to no = avail=20 and both believe that the DDS synthesizer is the culprit.
It is a=20 AD9859,see
http://www.dj0abr.de/ind= ex_english.html
I=20 have added a perseus screenshot with a bin width of 0.24Hz showing = strange lines=20 in their signal.
I'm not sure if this is the DDS spectrum what we see = here.

73
Clemens
DL4RAJ
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