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The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Hi Jim, I'm all for this, PROVIDED it does not include illegal connexions to any utility supply / transport infrastructures. You must include this in your previous post. This is vital, otherwise tro [...] Content analysis details: (1.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [77.238.178.147 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (evad_hine[at]yahoo.co.uk) 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid 1.0 FREEMAIL_REPLYTO Reply-To/From or Reply-To/body contain different freemails X-Scan-Signature: f7abf026a4e5c74784e85ba4cdc468e0 Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Re: VLF: GOTA Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_26820442_2017799065.1547233081861" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, hits=3.2 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_MUA_MOZILLA,HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false ------=_Part_26820442_2017799065.1547233081861 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jim,=C2=A0I'm all for this, PROVIDED it does not include illegal connexi= ons to any utility supply / transport infrastructures. You must include this in your previous post.=C2=A0This is vital, otherwise = trouble is guaranteed, at best, a long jail sentence for the culprit, and a= t worst, a motorway 'pile up', or rail crash.If you can make your own struc= ture on your own land, that's fine, but never do sneaky connexions to any i= nfrastructure that you don't own. That can only bring disrepute to Amateur = Radio. Is that what you call excitement??Please first contact Ofcom and the= RSGB for advice on this subject.David From: "hvanesce@comcast.net" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Friday, 11 January 2019, 18:38 Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Re: VLF: GOTA =20 #yiv9773134986 #yiv9773134986 -- _filtered #yiv9773134986 {font-family:Helv= etica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9773134986 {font-family= :Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9773134986 {font-f= amily:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9773134986 {fon= t-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv9773134986 #yiv977313498= 6 p.yiv9773134986MsoNormal, #yiv9773134986 li.yiv9773134986MsoNormal, #yiv9= 773134986 div.yiv9773134986MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font= -size:12.0pt;font-family:New;}#yiv9773134986 a:link, #yiv9773134986 span.yi= v9773134986MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv97731349= 86 a:visited, #yiv9773134986 span.yiv9773134986MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:= purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9773134986 p.yiv9773134986MsoAcetate,= #yiv9773134986 li.yiv9773134986MsoAcetate, #yiv9773134986 div.yiv977313498= 6MsoAcetate {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv97731349= 86 p.yiv9773134986MsoListParagraph, #yiv9773134986 li.yiv9773134986MsoListP= aragraph, #yiv9773134986 div.yiv9773134986MsoListParagraph {margin-top:0in;= margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;f= ont-size:12.0pt;font-family:New;}#yiv9773134986 span.yiv9773134986EmailStyl= e17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv9773134986 span.yiv9773134986BalloonTextChar {}#yiv= 9773134986 span.yiv9773134986EmailStyle20 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv9773134986 .y= iv9773134986MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv9773134986 {mar= gin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv9773134986 div.yiv9773134986WordSection1 {= }#yiv9773134986 Some random thoughts regarding =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6long low m= etal structures of any kind do not make good VLF / ELF TX antennas, and for= that reason are never employed. Also, they do not generate a vertically po= larised signal, which is very necessary for VLF and ELF propagation.=E2=80= =9D =C2=A0I also apologize for a narrow viewpoint, being interested in main= ly in science, experimentation, practical applications and amateur radio, a= nd in that narrow category long low metal structures have unique value for = ELF, SLF, ULF, and VLF, and yield some exciting discoveries. =C2=A0In pract= ical applications at ELF, SLF, ULF, and VLF frequencies, long low metal str= uctures provide underground magnetic fields for underground experiments, an= d high radiation angles for high-reliability low-power near field surface c= ommunications*=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0* (near field being 100km or more in part of that f= requency range, and reliable thanks to the D layer) =C2=A0The same is true = for scientific, experimental and amateur radio applications:In scientific a= nd experimental applications at low frequencies, the high radiation angle o= f long/low metal structures is of exceptionally high value; it uniquely pro= vides rich fundamental-physics information about ionospheric variations at = short (hours, minutes) timescales. =C2=A0In amateur radio low-frequency exp= eriments, the high radiation angle of long/low metal structures has provide= d rare information of benefit to many RF communities, including: =C2=A02 kH= z - 3kHz near-field propagation (an uncharted realm that computational mode= lling and analytical methods cannot yet effectively penetrate, but amateur = radio finally did (during the past two years), with a long low metal struct= ure, and shared the rare findings). =C2=A0Examples from science, practical= applications and experimentation: =C2=A0a) Siple Station was a 24 mile lon= g low metal structure (a wire), purposely made that way to give us otherwis= e-inaccessible fundamental information about the ionosphere (a vertical ant= enna would not have worked given its low radiation angle). =C2=A0b) The geo= physical exploration community uses long low metal structures for low-frequ= ency work in part because they are interested in underground signals, but a= lso because vertically polarized electric field signals, which would be of = value to them, would be expensive to produce (construction costs), and thei= r vertical antennas in many cases more damaging to the terrain (concrete su= pports for tall towers et al for vertical polarization, versus geophysical = community=E2=80=99s ground loop antennas which have near zero environmental= impact). =C2=A0c) Amateur radio low frequency experiments using long low m= etal structures recently demonstrated an extraordinarily wide frequency ran= ge available from a portable low size/weight/power transmitter based on lon= g low metal structures. The shared information form these experiments led t= o a thought from a bystander/reader of the shared information, that the lon= g/low-structure amateur equipment developed for those low-frequency experim= ents might be used without modification as the D-layer bottom side ionosond= e that has been sought for half a century (ionosonde candidate given its co= mbination of exceptionally wide frequency range, high radiation angle and d= eployability). A practical D-layer bottomside ionosonde would be of value t= o many RF communities, and to physics communities and perhaps particularly = to environmental science communities. I wonder if the device developed duri= ng those recent amateur experiments could be used as a D-layer bottomside i= onosonde (any thoughts on this?). =C2=A0Many apologies for the very long m= essage; and for the narrow focus on high radiation angles. =C2=A0Thanks for= all prior comments in this thread, much interesting information from this = discussion. =C2=A073, =C2=A0Jim AA5BW =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0= From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacks= heep.org] On Behalf Of REEVES Paul Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 5:44 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Re: VLF: GOTA =C2=A0Hi David, =C2=A0Several p= oints of contention here =E2=80=93 your description of Project sanguine is = incorrect in some details (but you can blame Wikipedia for that). It was, i= n fact, rather like the antenna you so strongly object to. I would suggest = you obtain a copy of =E2=80=98ELF Communications Antennas=E2=80=99 by Burro= ws. It is a bit dated now but is a good beginners text.While VLF antennas t= end towards vertical polarisation (I note you change from ELF to VLF here= =E2=80=A6.) vertical polarisation is not a specific requirement for propaga= tion but does make a rather more easily constructed (relatively compact) an= tenna for the frequencies concerned. I would also disagree with your descri= ption of the Beverage but why introduce it?Discussion about whether or not = to connect to infrastructure belonging to other entities is another matter = entirely.My background, by the way, is in antenna and comms system design f= or submarine systems so feel free to ignore me =E2=80=93 I have a rather na= rrow viewpoint!Regards,Paul=C2=A0=C2=A0 g8gja =C2=A0From: owner-rsgb_lf_gr= oup@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of= David Hine Sent: 11 January 2019 09:30 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Re: VLF: GOTA =C2=A0Hi Neil, Then only published = info that I'm aware of is the ELF antenna used by the USA to transmit ELF s= ignals on 76 Hz to submarines. This was 'Project Sanguine'. It used about 1= 5 miles of power cable suspended on 30 foot poles above ground and was eart= hed at each=C2=A0 =C2=A0end. A TX of around 5 Megawatts, about half way alo= ng this cable supplied the 76 Hz at a few hundred Amps. The radiated power = was around 3 Watts, and was just sufficient to travel the globe. Project Sa= nguine was abandoned some years ago, as it fell obsolete as new sophisticat= ed comms replaced it, such as satellites etc.. It was very expensive, only = one way comms, and the 15 mile of cable was constantly being attacked by va= ndals and metal thieves. Russia still uses a similar system on 82 Hz (Zevs)= , and they shoot to kill anyone tampering with their cable!!!=C2=A0There is= an excellent Wikipedia page on Project Sanguine. Basically, it was a very = inefficient monster narrow loop.Otherwise, conventional Marconi vertical ma= sts tuned against ground are used for VLF TX'ing the vertically polarised s= ignals, at any=C2=A0 =C2=A0VLF frequency up to the LW broadcasting band.Fro= m my experience, long low metal structures of any kind do not make good VLF= / ELF TX antennas, and for that reason are never employed.Also, they do no= t generate a vertically polarised signal, which is very necessary for VLF a= nd ELF propagation. The historic 'Beverage' type of horizontal wire antenna= is long, but only suitable for reception (very inefficient as a TX antenna= ).Vertical balloon suspended wires do work, but you must observe the maximu= m height restrictions allowed in any particular location.I hope this is use= ful.Kind regards, David =C2=A0 =C2=A0From: Neil To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Thursday, 10 January 2019, 21:23 Subject: Re: VLF: GOTA =C2=A0This sounds interesting. Can you point at any = published results to explain what technique was used, what power was used t= o obtain those results, and how the signal was launched? I imagine lots of = people are considering the use of long lengths of metal infrastructure (on = private land, with the express permission of the landowner), so if there is= a solution which is demonstrably better, it would save a lot of unnecessar= y trouble for experimenters.Do you have any numbers comparing the technique= used in these experiments against those obtained from using long lengths o= f armco or metal fencing or huge bridges, (putting aside any arguments abou= t the rights and wrongs).=C2=A0 It would be good to see a documented compar= ison to show by what margin the experimental technique used is superior to = using low steel structures with a large horizontal extent.NeilOn 10/01/2019= 18:37, David Hine wrote:... TX connexions to motorway=C2=A0 =C2=A0guard r= ails, railway infrastructure, electric / gas supply utilities and fences et= c. are totally unnecessary for the transmitting of ELF=C2=A0 =C2=A0signals.= =C2=A0 =C2=A0These DO NOT make good VLF / ELF TX antennas .. =C2=A0 =20 ------=_Part_26820442_2017799065.1547233081861 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Jim,
<= div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1547232113603_4440" dir=3D"ltr"> I'm all f= or this, PROVIDED it does not include illegal connexions to any utility sup= ply / transport infrastructures.

You must include this in your previous post. 
This is vital= , otherwise trouble is guaranteed, at best, a long jail sentence for the cu= lprit, and at worst, a motorway 'pile up', or rail crash.
If you can make your own s= tructure on your own land, that's fine, but never do sneaky connexions to a= ny infrastructure that you don't own. That can only bring disrepute to Amat= eur Radio. Is that what you call excitement??
Please first contact Ofcom and the RSG= B for advice on this subject.
David


<= font id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1547232113603_4449" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">=
From: "hvanesce@comcast.net" <hvanesce= @comcast.net>
To: r= sgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Sent= : Friday, 11 January 2019, 18:38
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Re: VLF: GOTA

Some random tho= ughts regarding =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6long low metal structures of any kind do = not make good VLF / ELF TX antennas, and for that reason are never employed= . Also, they do not generate a vertically polarised signal, which is very n= ecessary for VLF and ELF propagation.=E2=80=9D
 
I also apologize for a narrow viewpoint, being interested in main= ly in science, experimentation, practical applications and amateur radio, a= nd in that narrow category long low metal structures have unique value for = ELF, SLF, ULF, and VLF, and yield some exciting discoveries.
 
In practical applications at ELF,= SLF, ULF, and VLF frequencies, long low metal structures provide undergrou= nd magnetic fields for underground experiments, and high radiation angles f= or high-reliability low-power near field surface communications*
         
     * (near field being 100km = or more in part of that frequency range, and reliable thanks to the D layer= )
 
The same is true = for scientific, experimental and amateur radio applications:
In scientific and experimental applications at low frequencies, t= he high radiation angle of long/low metal structures is of exceptionally hi= gh value; it uniquely provides rich fundamental-physics information about i= onospheric variations at short (hours, minutes) timescales.
 
In amateur radio low-frequency exp= eriments, the high radiation angle of long/low metal structures has provide= d rare information of benefit to many RF communities, including:
 2 kHz - 3kHz near-field propagation (an uncharted real= m that computational modelling and analytical methods cannot yet effectivel= y penetrate, but amateur radio finally did (during the past two years), wit= h a long low metal structure, and shared the rare findings).
<= div class=3D"yiv9773134986MsoNormal">  
Examples from science, practical= applications and experimentation:
 
a) Siple Station was a 24 mile long low metal structure (a = wire), purposely made that way to give us otherwise-inaccessible fundamenta= l information about the ionosphere (a vertical antenna would not have worke= d given its low radiation angle).
 
b) The geophysical exploration community uses long low metal= structures for low-frequency work in part because they are interested in u= nderground signals, but also because vertically polarized electric field si= gnals, which would be of value to them, would be expensive to produce (cons= truction costs), and their vertical antennas in many cases more damaging to= the terrain (concrete supports for tall towers et al for vertical polariza= tion, versus geophysical community=E2=80=99s ground loop antennas which hav= e near zero environmental impact).
 
c) Amateur radio low frequency experiments using long low m= etal structures recently demonstrated an extraordinarily wide frequency ran= ge available from a portable low size/weight/power transmitter based on lon= g low metal structures. The shared information form these experiments led t= o a thought from a bystander/reader of the shared information, that the lon= g/low-structure amateur equipment developed for those low-frequency experim= ents might be used without modification as the D-layer bottom side ionosond= e that has been sought for half a century (ionosonde candidate given its co= mbination of exceptionally wide frequency range, high radiation angle and d= eployability). A practical D-layer bottomside ionosonde would be of value t= o many RF communities, and to physics communities and perhaps particularly = to environmental science communities. I wonder if the device developed duri= ng those recent amateur experiments could be used as a D-layer bottomside i= onosonde (any thoughts on this?).
 
Many apologies for the very long message; and for the narro= w focus on high radiation angles.
 
Thanks for all prior comments in this thread, much interesti= ng information from this discussion.
 =
73,
 
Jim AA5BW     
 =
 
From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@bla= cksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of REEVES Paul
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 5:44 A= M
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Re: VLF: GOTA
 
Hi David,=
 
Several points of = contention here =E2=80=93 your description of Project sanguine is incorrect= in some details (but you can blame Wikipedia for that). It was, in fact, r= ather like the antenna you so strongly object to. I would suggest you obtai= n a copy of =E2=80=98ELF Communications Antennas=E2=80=99 by Burrows. It is= a bit dated now but is a good beginners text.
Whil= e VLF antennas tend towards vertical polarisation (I note you change from E= LF to VLF here=E2=80=A6.) vertical polarisation is not a specific requireme= nt for propagation but does make a rather more easily constructed (relative= ly compact) antenna for the frequencies concerned. I would also disagree wi= th your description of the Beverage but why introduce it?
Discussion about whether or not to connect to infrastructure belongi= ng to other entities is another matter entirely.
My= background, by the way, is in antenna and comms system design for submarin= e systems so feel free to ignore me =E2=80=93 I have a rather narrow viewpo= int!
Regards,
Paul &nb= sp; g8gja
 
From:= owner-rsgb_lf_group@b= lacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] <= b>On Behalf Of David Hine
Sent: 11 January 201= 9 09:30
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Re: VLF: GOTA
=
 
Hi Neil, Then only published in= fo that I'm aware of is the ELF antenna used by the USA to transmit ELF sig= nals on 76 Hz to submarines. This was 'Project Sanguine'. It used about 15 = miles of power cable suspended on 30 foot poles above ground and was earthe= d at each 
 =
<= div class=3D"yiv9773134986MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white;">end. A TX of around 5 Megawatts, abo= ut half way along this cable supplied the 76 Hz at a few hundred Amps. The = radiated power was around 3 Watts, and was just sufficient to travel the gl= obe. Project Sanguine was abandoned some years ago, as it fell obsolete as = new sophisticated comms replaced it, such as satellites etc.. It was very e= xpensive, only one way comms, and the 15 mile of cable was constantly being= attacked by vandals and metal thieves. Russia still uses a similar system = on 82 Hz (Zevs), and they shoot to kill anyone tampering with their cable!!= ! 
There is an excellent = Wikipedia page on Project Sanguine. Basically, it was a very inefficient mo= nster narrow loop.
Otherwise, = conventional Marconi vertical masts tuned against ground are used for VLF T= X'ing the vertically polarised signals, at any 
 
VLF frequency up to the LW broadcasting band.
From my experience, long low metal structures of any kind = do not make good VLF / ELF TX antennas, and for that reason are never emplo= yed.
Also, they do not generat= e a vertically polarised signal, which is very necessary for VLF and ELF pr= opagation. The historic 'Beverage' type of horizontal wire antenna is long,= but only suitable for reception (very inefficient as a TX antenna).=
<= div class=3D"yiv9773134986MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white;">Vertical balloon suspended wires do = work, but you must observe the maximum height restrictions allowed in any p= articular location.
I hope thi= s is useful.
Kind regards, Dav= id  
 
From:<= /b> Neil <neil@g4dbn.uk>
To: rsgb_lf_group@bl= acksheep.org
Sent: Thursday, 10 January 2019, 21:23
Subject: Re: VLF: GOTA=
 
This sounds interest= ing. Can you point at any published results to explain what technique was u= sed, what power was used to obtain those results, and how the signal was la= unched? I imagine lots of people are considering the use of long lengths of= metal infrastructure (on private land, with the express permission of the = landowner), so if there is a solution which is demonstrably better, it woul= d save a lot of unnecessary trouble for experimenters.
Do you have any numbers comparing the technique u= sed in these experiments against those obtained from using long lengths of = armco or metal fencing or huge bridges, (putting aside any arguments about = the rights and wrongs).  It would be good to see a documented comparis= on to show by what margin the experimental technique used is superior to us= ing low steel structures with a large horizontal extent.
=
Neil
On 10/01/2019 18:37, David Hine wro= te:
=
... TX connexions to motorway&= nbsp;
 
guard rails, railway infrastructure, electric / gas= supply utilities and fences etc. are totally unnecessary for the transmitt= ing of ELF 
 
=
signals. 
 
These DO NOT make good VLF / ELF TX antennas ..
=
 =


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