Return-Path: Received: from mtain-dh04.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-dh04.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.65.24]) by air-md02.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINMD023-8b7a4d5bf13d2d1; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 10:46:05 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-dh04.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 189C13800078F; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 10:46:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1PpjZB-0001MR-VD for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 15:45:21 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1PpjZB-0001MI-5L for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 15:45:21 +0000 Received: from nm14.bullet.mail.ird.yahoo.com ([77.238.189.67]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1PpjZ9-0001hi-Qa for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 15:45:21 +0000 Received: from [77.238.189.56] by nm14.bullet.mail.ird.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Feb 2011 15:45:13 -0000 Received: from [212.82.109.128] by tm9.bullet.mail.ird.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Feb 2011 15:45:13 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1020.mail.ird.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Feb 2011 15:45:13 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 554032.89044.bm@omp1020.mail.ird.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 82725 invoked from network); 16 Feb 2011 15:45:13 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=btinternet.com; h=DKIM-Signature:Received:X-Yahoo-SMTP:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=Asps1eHZWqlyjvDJQvteqjKGu0IGr7YcqEH+juj5cSsWN3+xRU08ZMaZB+6B9yNxaCdjc3ZVEcB7Ft+grBD+Mkq/pH2pPxjQs0tnsm6D1cNOmT2FptcvHGa9fhxXtvDYLujj3NskYYJjYFn2wxLRc06UD3HQkQKga9fZyU2b/Hg= ; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btinternet.com; s=s1024; t=1297871113; bh=d8/Wqq/X9Bre5sZFEK3dMK5qJwJbZwUMs/+hRInacrQ=; h=Received:X-Yahoo-SMTP:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=TvXDXSZHrxahYQbjno1jg1Zv5xneqLg038+l50A3zUGBt72JinqmFOdO+J9jphNr/IdtzfolyT6VeDpVOZ9sX/hpDqlrZmqQd3txzec50k9zqYH88W6mDhPH/eNPQDn1Z5tDy9NgNv0Bq55kZM2FnY6Oni0dwcWEVRFBJTV7tcA= Received: from IBM7FFA209F07C (c.ashby435@81.153.45.87 with login) by smtp820.mail.ird.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Feb 2011 15:45:12 +0000 GMT X-Yahoo-SMTP: .u8e2g.swBByWKjbpA3lR6Fw.2ZEQrJJpVsTSrpXLCffsPaCEMY- X-YMail-OSG: KUzRHnQVM1mNLtWEWAH02w9ue7FKL5dkY4qAGh3Wjyggd6L SLbBLUWgJtqn1sjLCd8G8m2RAcuhQEKPsrmduGCDCk4vzHGPwh_CWt9QGhA7 gaSTH0FrqbJyfw4e5zCwZM5cVPcyQM5K21DF7tA1zkiqPmzLZqaqxSzCxU99 Rd.LTb5zxvHmLuFwNULhtioUCB9C9NcV9m34LgzDaiLOuWw1Tp3qQn_GZN4R mEt26vC2RQTbiGIqOl6amNneqBwveFSQJk0y7cSPzpMiIfP6PM4DuOgVtHUs AjzF6xs_AWqDv1wHJ X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 Message-ID: <3E3CD5291D4A4602839EA500C1D201F7@IBM7FFA209F07C> From: "Chris" To: References: <8E8D23D235D70840B6582917DF27898006935D3C@temps153538.tus.uk.thales> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 15:45:14 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5994 DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 3.4 (+++) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK=3.36,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001 Subject: Re: LF: TA TONITE Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003E_01CBCDF0.809E6360" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, hits=3.2 required=5.0 tests=EXCUSE_16,FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK, FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS,HTML_20_30,HTML_FONTCOLOR_BLUE,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-m023.2 ; domain : btinternet.com DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d41184d5bf13b4619 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01CBCDF0.809E6360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Paul, I think Mal was quite rightly referring to test equipment available to= the professionals as opposed to 'us' amateurs. There was a discussion on here a year or so ago where it was generally= agreed that most of our 'estimates' at ERP had quite a large degree= of likely error! Vy 73, Chris, G4AYT. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Reeves Paul=20 To: 'rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org'=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 3:24 PM Subject: RE: LF: TA TONITE Mal, The reference ...'especially by Radio Amateurs' could well be cons= idered offensive and is definitely not borne out by fact. I suppose th= at the only qualified people would be marine radio officers? I will not request a retraction - knowing you it would not be forthc= oming - but could you be a bit careful with sweeping generalisations= in the future? Paul G8GJA -----Original Message----- From: mal hamilton [mailto:g3kevmal@talktalk.net] Sent: 16 February 2011 15:03 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: TA TONITE Toni It is all Guesswork trying to measure ERP some hundreds of miles= away. especially by Radio Amateurs. I have seen figures in the past and after a detailed mathematical= analysis the concluded statement was that this could be 6 dB either= way, in other words the erp measured could be 1W erp or maybe 4w erp= or even worse a lot less. Let them believe what they like hi g3kev ----- Original Message -----=20 From: HB9ASB=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 1:08 PM Subject: Re: LF: TA TONITE Thanks Rik I've read somewhere that DCF39 has 40kW EIRP. So we would have= around 4W EIRP. Last week a station measured our field strength, 100k= m away and came to 0.4WEIRP. This is probably a little bit to low. Any= way, it shows me again, that most amateurs overestimate their ERP. Eve= n Mal has probably not the Watt he claims ;-) 73 de Toni 2011/2/16 Rik Strobbe Hello Toni, group, I measured the HE3OM signal 41dB down on DCF39. Distances to HE3OM (504km) and DCF39 (515km) are almost identi= cal. This might give the US stations a clue what signal strength th= ey can expect from HE3OM and what QRSS speed Tony could use to be copi= ed. 73, Rik ON7YD ----------------------------------------------------------------------= -- Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@b= lacksheep.org] namens HB9ASB [hb9asb@gmail.com] Verzonden: woensdag 16 februari 2011 8:44 Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Onderwerp: Re: LF: TA TONITE Dear Jim, Mal and LF Group Unfortunately the tower is not nearby my house and I can't lea= ve the station running unattended. And the nights I can spend in Sotte= ns are limited by my health and my wife, hi. So there is no trial befo= re, I have just next Friday night. If I take a look at the reports we got in the past two weeks= from stations 2000-3000km away (always good audible), it should be po= ssible to span 6000km using QRSS10. On the receiving side, we may be able to see stations let's sa= y with QRSS60. This would mean, that we could make only one or two QSO= 's. May be it's better to try Crossband: we transmit in QRSS10 and lis= ten on 80m. This would give more stations the opportunity to contact= us. However, if there is a station from the East Coast we copy in QRS= S10 it would get the priority. What do you think about this approach? 73 de Toni 2011/2/15 James Moritz Dear Toni, LF Group, HE3OM has the advantage of a much stronger TX signal than mo= st Eu stations, so I guess you have a good chance of being copied in= NA on Friday night, unless the propagation is very poor. But as you= will have seen from the activity last weekend, forward planning is al= ways a good thing, especially where a single QSO takes hours. If possi= ble, I would suggest transmitting some beacon signals from HE3OM betwe= en now and Friday, so that North American stations can get a good idea= what QRSS speed can be copied from your station. Also, try to receive= any W/VE beacons that might be running, so that you also know what th= e requirement will be in the other direction. Finally, I have usually= found reception of US stations is best just before dawn here, so make= sure you are not going to be busy on Saturday! Good luck,=20 Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU=20 This email, including any attachment, is a confidential communicatio= n intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it= is addressed. It contains information which is private and may be pro= prietary or covered by legal professional privilege. If you have recei= ved this email in error, please notify the sender upon receipt, and im= mediately delete it from your system. Anything contained in this email that is not connected with the busi= nesses of this company is neither endorsed by nor is the liability of= this company. Whilst we have taken reasonable precautions to ensure that any attac= hment to this email has been swept for viruses, we cannot accept liabi= lity for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses, and wou= ld advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any= attachment. ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01CBCDF0.809E6360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Paul,
I think Mal was quite rightly referri= ng to test=20 equipment available to the professionals as opposed to 'us'=20 amateurs.
There was a discussion on here a year= or so ago=20 where it was generally agreed that most of our 'estimates' at ERP had= quite a=20 large degree of likely error!
Vy 73,
Chris, G4AYT.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Reeves Paul
Sent: Wednesday, February 16,= 2011 3:24=20 PM
Subject: RE: LF: TA TONITE

Mal,
 
The=20 reference  ...'especially by Radio Amateurs'  could well= be=20 considered offensive and is definitely not borne out by fact. I supp= ose that=20 the only qualified people would be marine radio officers?
I=20 will not request a retraction - knowing you it would not be forthcom= ing - but=20 could you be a bit careful with sweeping generalisations in the=20 future?
 
Paul    G8GJA
-----Original Message-----
From:= mal hamilton=20 [mailto:g3kevmal@talktalk.net]
Sent: 16 February 2011=20 15:03
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: LF:=20 TA TONITE

Toni
It is all Guesswork trying to measure ERP= some=20 hundreds of miles away. especially by Radio Amateurs.
I have seen figures in the past and after= a detailed=20 mathematical analysis the concluded statement was that this could= be 6=20 dB either way, in other words the erp measured could be 1W erp or= maybe 4w=20 erp or even worse a lot less.
Let them believe what they like hi<= /DIV>
g3kev
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 HB9= ASB
Sent: Wednesday, February= 16, 2011=20 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: LF: TA TONIT= E

Thanks Rik
I've read somewhere that DCF39 has= 40kW EIRP.=20 So we would have around 4W EIRP. Last week a station measured ou= r field=20 strength, 100km away and came to 0.4WEIRP. This is probably a li= ttle bit=20 to low. Anyway, it shows me again, that most amateurs overestima= te their=20 ERP. Even Mal has probably not the Watt he claims ;-)
73 de= =20 Toni

2011/2/16 Rik Strobbe &= lt;Rik.Strobbe@= fys.kuleuven.be>
Hello Toni, group,
 
I measured=20 the HE3OM signal 41dB down on DCF39.
Distances to HE3OM (504km)= =20 and DCF39 (515km) are almost identical.
This might give the US stati= ons a clue=20 what signal strength they can expect from HE3OM and what QRSS= speed Tony=20 could use to be copied.
 
73, Rik  ON7YD
 
 
Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens HB9ASB [= hb9asb@gmail.com]
Verzonden: woensdag 16=20 februari 2011 8:44
Aan: rsgb_lf_group@= blacksheep.org
Onderwerp: Re:=20 LF: TA TONITE

Dear Jim, Mal and LF Group

Unfortunately the tower= is not=20 nearby my house and I can't leave the station running unattend= ed. And=20 the nights I can spend in Sottens are limited by my health and= my wife,=20 hi. So there is no trial before, I have just next Friday night= .
If I=20 take a look at the reports we got in the past two weeks from= stations=20 2000-3000km away (always good audible), it should be possible= to span=20 6000km using QRSS10.
On the receiving side, we may be able= to see=20 stations let's say with QRSS60. This would mean, that we could= make only=20 one or two QSO's. May be it's better to try Crossband: we tran= smit in=20 QRSS10 and listen on 80m. This would give more stations the op= portunity=20 to contact us. However, if there is a station from the East Co= ast we=20 copy in QRSS10 it would get the priority.
What do you think= about=20 this approach?

73 de Toni

2011/2/15 James Moritz <james.moritz@btopenworld.com>
Dear Toni, LF Group,

HE3OM has the advantage= =20 of a much stronger TX signal than most Eu stations, so I gue= ss you=20 have a good chance of being copied in NA on Friday night, un= less the=20 propagation is very poor. But as you will have seen from the= activity=20 last weekend, forward planning is always a good thing, espec= ially=20 where a single QSO takes hours. If possible, I would suggest= =20 transmitting some beacon signals from HE3OM between now and= Friday, so=20 that North American stations can get a good idea what QRSS= speed can=20 be copied from your station. Also, try to receive any W/VE= beacons=20 that might be running, so that you also know what the requir= ement will=20 be in the other direction. Finally, I have usually found rec= eption of=20 US stations is best just before dawn here, so make sure you= are not=20 going to be busy on Saturday!

Good luck,=20

Cheers, Jim Moritz
73 de M0BMU=20



This email, including any attachment,= is a=20 confidential communication intended solely for the use of the indivi= dual or=20 entity to whom it is addressed. It contains information which is pri= vate and=20 may be proprietary or covered by legal professional privilege. If yo= u have=20 received this email in error, please notify the sender upon receipt,= and=20 immediately delete it from your system.


Anything contained in this email that= is not=20 connected with the businesses of this company is neither endorsed by= nor is=20 the liability of this company.


Whilst we have taken reasonable preca= utions to=20 ensure that any attachment to this email has been swept for viruses,= we cannot=20 accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software vi= ruses, and=20 would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening= any=20 attachment.


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