Return-Path: Received: from mtain-dg05.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-dg05.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.65.13]) by air-da07.mail.aol.com (v127_r1.1) with ESMTP id MAILINDA071-85e94b88e98930d; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 04:44:41 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-dg05.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id B6D64380000F6; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 04:44:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1NlJCb-000673-Og for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:43:13 +0000 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1NlJCb-00066u-5T for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:43:13 +0000 Received: from web28105.mail.ukl.yahoo.com ([217.146.182.125]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NlJCb-0003iG-0M for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:43:13 +0000 Received: (qmail 23637 invoked by uid 60001); 27 Feb 2010 09:43:07 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.co.uk; s=s1024; t=1267263787; bh=H2xTzJU4HVVhulzjHX9uUvdfWHLuSIl20GKOUGT0Sn4=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=svOOQjwdhmpzPQV7CfE13tKxZ48t5j5WRa0kFk7nXP02pOgfWlq4uSu1asngSwNfX47XqhYoPwZ7TSizbInk4IZRcB0tlU0SFD3vZo/rUXYQCLNG6W9D/ZgL7oTZ12l+5c4ZJ8sDtOcpLfKw8dIK/2OW31GPxbfktQLTH21efak= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=199ZlQoHQh1OV42GJTgsSmi+3a9PmkjpaHkpkpbWTvYgsENa3K2dwMomVw5iLqFCWsDg9nPWQcvE+kRaxyUB5e5DSNBETJTW4EbGy4P41luSfebX9cLDFxHObIumgpD4/oQsYnow2JTpUi3DyRKClgYUYlmcy4A/q7+0I2gZANg=; Message-ID: <377207.23110.qm@web28105.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: GqV1OioVM1nHasu2fZx5EKVeLi8EFVnm7zl48m5TqjM49drj9hvoVfjZkgnH2yeFKGeSAN9XFiD1Yfcq7LPGXrIBY905JkbJstdz4W.L.WCC8Oc958fg8b1HDpIUT4N6rSmpWUnOQ2Z8PCFKYi.rrOpKUBcND27d5qIK86Fy4JdWijN9PNROTdq9CPJCmcWL1f_Cp2.TsjS7poTZvIeySO7KfjA_LGenZaBbGK.3sa6XKXeD_8UCQJvA2QGKmNLmJD9vonBhY1zcWE7H0pUJ Received: from [81.152.103.216] by web28105.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 01:43:07 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/9.2.12 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 01:43:07 -0800 (PST) From: M0FMT To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org In-Reply-To: <57a24ca71002261728s1be02142h83d7b0d8931e540@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 DomainKey-Status: good (testing) Subject: Re: LF: Fwd: Special Permits for Amateur Radio Operation below 9kHz? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-674318801-1267263787=:23110" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.9 required=5.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, HTML_TAG_EXISTS_TBODY autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-m226.1 ; domain : yahoo.co.uk DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d410d4b88e9877bbf X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 --0-674318801-1267263787=:23110 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Warren and thanks=20 =A0 Your comments are well noted along with=A0the good healthy dose of cynicis= m, I like that .... hee hee! =A0 73 es GL petefmt --- On Sat, 27/2/10, Warren Ziegler wrote: From: Warren Ziegler Subject: Re: LF: Fwd: Special Permits for Amateur Radio Operation below 9k= Hz? To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Saturday, 27 February, 2010, 1:28 Hi Pete,=20 =A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Yes I guess I engaged in a bit of hyperbole when I= suggested that 9kHz won't cross the garden wall, but not by much. If you reckon that the world record is 10km for an amateur and that was to= receive a very faint ARGO trace then for a signal to be audible it must= be considerably closer. =A0=A0 =A0 =A0=A0 =A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 You comment on politics reminds of the old joke:=A0 Q. =A0Do you know the difference between capitalism and communism? A. =A0In capitalism its dog eat dog; in communism its the other way 'round= ! --=A0 73 Warren K2ORS =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0WD2XGJ=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0WD2XSH/23 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0WE2XEB/2 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0WE2XGR/1 =A0=A0 On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 3:46 PM, M0FMT wrote: Hi Warren =A0 Well I can tell you right now that the garden wall is not the limit by any= means unless you live on John Wayne's Ranch. Your New President is trying to create jobs over there? He wants to take= a leaf out of our book we've been doing it for years... joking aside.....= .. I am not expecting DX but to have a communication path that covers the= local LF Amateur community on VLF would be rather Cool I think. From ther= e it may be a long road that I for one=A0may not travel but at the moment= there is enough enthusiasm locally to try out a few ideas many have come= from this debate on the LF reflector. The near field signal is quite read= able at about 1/2 km from a very low power TX using a whip on RX=A0during= a quick wiz up the road in the car. Must key this thing my ears are ringi= ng with this continuous beat note running all the time. =A0 73 es GL petefmt=20 -------------------------------------------------- From: "Warren Ziegler" Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 9:31 PM To: Subject: Re: LF: Fwd: Special Permits for Amateur Radio Operation below 9k= Hz? Asking Ofcom for a license or Nov to generate a signal that will not extend past your own garden seems like a lot of trouble for nothing.... --=20 73 Warren K2ORS =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 WD2XGJ =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 WD2XSH/23 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 WE2XEB/2 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 WE2XGR/1 On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 3:28 PM, Jacek Lipkowski wr= ote: On Thu, 25 Feb 2010, Roger Lapthorn wrote: People may be interested in the reply from Rod Wilkinson at OFCOM received today. I asked him what OFCOM's view would be. [...] They state that ITU Radio Regs indicate that there is no allocation for frequencies below 9 kHz. However in the UK, a licence would be required as there is no lower frequency limit for wireless telegraphy under the WT Act 2006. [...] there is already a very big commercial user of the elf and vlf spectrum, they inject very big power into ground dipoles. emissions from one contine= nt can be heard on another. and they do this without any license from the rad= io authorities. the only regulation they need regards maximum field strengths (and this is usually the realm of some environmental protection authority and not the radio authority). the operating frequency varies, but is usual= ly 50Hz, 60Hz, 16.6Hz etc :) sometimes when dealing with the goverment, the best practice is not to ask at all :) even if they agree with you there will always be a "but you will need a license for that" clause. if you have to ask, ask them if it is their duty to regulate potential electromagnetic wave transmission from instalations operating on 50Hz (or any other frequency in the 0-9kHz region, that is not ITU regulated). you would probably get an entirely different answer :) VY 73 Jacek / SQ5BPF ps. the answer that you got from OFCOM is actually very nice =20 --0-674318801-1267263787=:23110 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Warren and thanks
 
Yo= ur comments are well noted along with the good healthy dose of cynici= sm, I like that
..= .. hee hee!
&n= bsp;
73= es GL petefmt


--- On Sat, 27/2/10, Warren Ziegler <wd2xgj@gmail.co= m> wrote:

From: Warren Ziegler <wd2xgj@gmail.com><= BR>Subject: Re: LF: Fwd: Special Permits for Amateur Radio Operation below= 9kHz?
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Date: Saturday, 27 February,= 2010, 1:28

Hi Pete,=20

          Yes I guess I engaged in a bi= t of hyperbole when I suggested that 9kHz won't cross the garden wall, but= not by much.
If you reckon that the world record is 10km for an amateur and that= was to receive a very faint ARGO trace then for a signal to be audible it= must be considerably closer.
       
         You comment on politics reminds of= the old joke: 
Q.  Do you know the difference between capitalism and communism?=
A.  In capitalism its dog eat dog; in communism its the other wa= y 'round !

-- 
73 Warren K2ORS
          &nb= sp;    WD2XGJ 
           =    WD2XSH/23
             = ;  WE2XEB/2
               = ;WE2XGR/1

  

On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 3:46 PM, M0FMT <m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

Hi Warren
 
Well I can tell you right now that the garden wall is not the limit= by any means unless you live on John Wayne's Ranch.
Your New President= is trying to create jobs over there? He wants to take a leaf out of our= book we've been doing it for years... joking aside....... I am not expect= ing DX but to have a communication path that covers the local LF Amateur= community on VLF would be rather Cool I think. From there it may be a lon= g road that I for one may not travel but at the moment there is enoug= h enthusiasm locally to try out a few ideas many have come from this debat= e on the LF reflector. The near field signal is quite readable at about 1/= 2 km from a very low power TX using a whip on RX during a quick wiz= up the road in the car. Must key this thing my ears are ringing with this= continuous beat note running all the time.
 
73 es GL petefmt=20

--------------------------------------------------
= From: "Warren Ziegler" <wd2xgj@gmail.com<= /A>>
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 9:31 PM
To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>Subject: Re: LF: Fwd: Special Permits for Amateur Radio Operation below= 9kHz?


Asking Ofcom for a license= or Nov to generate a signal that will not
extend past your own garden= seems like a lot of trouble for
nothing....

--
73 Warren K2= ORS
              WD2XGJ
 =             WD2XSH/23
    &nbs= p;         WE2XEB/2
        &nb= sp;     WE2XGR/1


On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 3:28 PM, Jac= ek Lipkowski <sq5bpf@lipkowski.o= rg> wrote:
On Thu, 25 Feb 2010, Roger Lapth= orn wrote:

People may be interested in the= reply from Rod Wilkinson at OFCOM received
today. I asked him what OFC= OM's view would be.

[...]

They state that ITU Radio Re= gs indicate that there is no allocation for
frequencies below 9 kHz. Ho= wever in the UK, a licence would be required as
there is no lower frequ= ency limit for wireless telegraphy under the WT Act
2006. [...]

there is already a very big commercial user of the elf and vl= f spectrum,
they inject very big power into ground dipoles. emissions= from one continent
can be heard on another. and they do this without= any license from the radio
authorities. the only regulation they need= regards maximum field strengths
(and this is usually the realm of some= environmental protection authority
and not the radio authority). the= operating frequency varies, but is usually
50Hz, 60Hz, 16.6Hz etc :)
sometimes when dealing with the goverment, the best practice is not= to ask
at all :) even if they agree with you there will always be a "but you will
ne= ed a license for that" clause.

if you have to ask, ask them if it= is their duty to regulate potential
electromagnetic wave transmission= from instalations operating on 50Hz (or
any other frequency in the 0-9= kHz region, that is not ITU regulated). you
would probably get an entir= ely different answer :)

VY 73

Jacek / SQ5BPF

ps. the= answer that you got from OFCOM is actually very nice

=











=20 --0-674318801-1267263787=:23110--