Return-Path: Received: from mtain-mp10.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-mp10.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.193.78]) by air-mb07.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINMB074-a7a84cf2f7c221c; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 19:45:54 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-mp10.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 17600380000BC; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 19:45:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1PMrrM-0003J7-DQ for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 00:44:48 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1PMrrL-0003Iy-Dr for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 00:44:47 +0000 Received: from nm12-vm0.bullet.mail.ukl.yahoo.com ([217.146.183.246]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1PMrrL-0003P1-6m for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 00:44:47 +0000 Received: from [217.146.183.184] by nm12.bullet.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Nov 2010 00:44:41 -0000 Received: from [217.146.183.74] by tm15.bullet.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Nov 2010 00:44:41 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1035.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Nov 2010 00:44:41 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 203518.63654.bm@omp1035.mail.ukl.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 40054 invoked by uid 60001); 29 Nov 2010 00:44:41 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.co.uk; s=s1024; t=1290991481; bh=Z37UFeJaWo7iAuBA8Wz1lUM+USILRiLce55oQ3B+X0c=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=ewTVidWHtvQlrZcqluYmAoURmEddZECQrADFcS1rrLOAPJQqASbiYSP09dTZgj5Z9SqHDQvVKR7orAE8fWCG1ukSvHr22qCu+BHbfwD2fUt3ksvc+T3MkVCbl0YEXth28mw+w7IG3TvGV0e+DHc4702PGTMx1ZO0vW951C4W59E= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=0tQnHdl3JMRsja9p12qvQzSS+F2tWWfx8nyb0db1Uq341jtQ5Oh+ZltA/divEX389Bq0DooQ0VujnrIrZLZTPLEoX9GJZglPeil+FUwHQPFT4+donZPhdb8P2CXovIY7ux4R0p++A5Ihj77tigbGTLjVQuLZzEbnjK39Mbjb7B4=; Message-ID: <35728.39676.qm@web28106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 94x3.tYVM1n8XQn2WwQVrbAsZ819GfvJx6e9BVvjCTwOXN9 1meji.Dibe11nRed_0RmkD2ERzgg5o3iVznTMbZtw1ygB0vlpfWzSYk5bofK v6omGYWdalaGBLoR.DbPTjAkODAg0ChB0LTn9DftFKCfg0BcqhC4yi2ViN8Q Nc6bDYXjqPSrdNoIyjRK4KvpMM23fJU9VKwKMQLx7wXhBrJ7f7l4NAJ317xr qNNPs0B8BkBN18KyLBq08m6Hwa_11QVJTd9gLRo5NSuN8Znhho9euwn7vpvQ 1V_cVtQvwDHLDKAjCwLohcVnk0vHchg8li2il2hDgXJMrMD4Lyw6j9ITS.WJ vPXQs4Kk- Received: from [81.158.122.45] by web28106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 29 Nov 2010 00:44:40 GMT X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/11.4.9 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 00:44:40 +0000 (GMT) From: M0FMT To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org In-Reply-To: <25671BC19A084642B38CBC31639E7633@lindavideo> MIME-Version: 1.0 DomainKey-Status: good (testing) Subject: Re: LF: Any ADSL2 BBand router / RF proof ? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1233634848-1290991480=:39676" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, HTML_TAG_EXISTS_TBODY autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-m272.2 ; domain : yahoo.co.uk DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1dc14e4cf2f7c07c48 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 --0-1233634848-1290991480=:39676 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ken =A0 Thanks for the "teach in". Tell me why is BT so keen on copper wire it has= nothing but disadvantage.Open Reach must spend millions of pounds trying= to make it work. And now with these raids on the ducting because of the= value of copper it make even more sense to change over to fibre. However= I am being told it will never happen because on lack of expertise within= BT. These comments come from Open Reach at=A0Liverpool. Have you any idea= why they don't import some engineering talent?=A0 73 petefmt I support www.NotSpotTelecom.Com your community Telco / ISP. --- On Sun, 28/11/10, Ken wrote: From: Ken Subject: Re: LF: Any ADSL2 BBand router / RF proof ? To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Sunday, 28 November, 2010, 20:13 Hello Everyone.=20 I think you will find that with your line length from the serving exchange= =A0 (7km)?=A0 the S/N ratio will be poor, a minimum of 10dB is required,= my copper connection is about 2.7km which is considered to be approaching= the limit, although the tests at the customer NTE showed that=A03Mbt/s.sh= ould have been possible.=A0At these line lengths any rf will swamp the DSL= signal.=A0I have discussed this problem at length several time with the= people I worked with at Adastral Park ( commonly known as BT Labs), both= DSL and EMC, the problem is compounded if a) you have a long length of ov= erhead drop wire,=A0b) the number=A0and configuration=A0of any internal ex= tensions, and c) the position of the router with respect to the incomming= NTE (master socket). If the dropwire is long, the induced common mode int= erference will be transformed into differential mode before it reaches the= router, any internal extension wiring will increase attenuation, especial= ly if it is a 'star configuration. The router should be as close as possible to the incoming NTE. A spectral= analysis of my line revealed that there were no DSL carriers=A0above 500k= Hz, hence not being able to use 500kHz, if the router shuts down because= a corrupted incoming signal, it will start a 're-training' sequence with= the DSLAM in the serving exchange, however if either the line or the rout= er is changed, the exchange equipment will then go though a process of det= ermining the best possible data speed of the new configuration, thia can= take up to ten days, if during this time any of the speedtest sites are= used different data rates will be loged. =A0 I changed my 1st generation=A0BT Homehub router for an older BT Voyager=A0= 2500, =A0which improved the situation with the HF bands but not at 500kHz,= even with high value common mode chokes on everything in sight. The probl= em was finally solved by changing over to BT Infinity Fibre To The Cabinet= (FTTC) with copper line length of 400m giving data speeds of 14Mbt/s. =A0 I hope some of this is both of use and interest you all. =A0 73 Ken M0KHW=A0=A0=A0=A0 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: M0FMT=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 10:08 AM Subject: Re: LF: Any ADSL2 BBand router / RF proof ? Hi Again Graham and LF =A0 Hmmmmm OK looks like you are in better shape than me. A local station who= has difficulty with his ADSL has put Ferrite clamp on filters on all lead= s in and out of the Modem including the power supply lead. He claims (and= I have no reason to doubt him) that this has solved his problems. The mod= em is the new BT Black Box one. I have one of those although much more rel= iable and faster it still suffers from my description below. The issue I= have appears not to be Modem related but exchange based. =A0 I talk to Larry regularly on 4m so next time, if I remember, I will get th= e details of his solution Viz ferrite type and where on the lines he is fi= tting them and forward it to you. It may help.=20 As before good luck with your efforts; what ever success you get please pu= blish it. Ken M0KHW Luton has an ADSL=A0problem too so several people woul= d be interested I am sure. 73 es GL petefmt I support www.NotSpotTelecom.Com your community Telco / ISP. --- On Fri, 26/11/10, Graham wrote: From: Graham Subject: Re: LF: Any ADSL2 BBand router / RF proof ? To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Friday, 26 November, 2010, 0:49 Ok Pete=20 =A0 This is the new=A0 router , as its=A0 in the=A0 same place as the old one= , with (now) the=A0 same=A0 filters , the=A0 PC is=A0 linked with a=A0 sh= ort network=A0 cable , the=A0 rest of the=A0 pc's are=A0 linked by radio.= its the=A0 adsl=A0 like thats=A0 failing=20 =A0 The edimax=A0=A0 router was=A0 quite=A0 robust , never had a drop=A0 out= on HF and only=A0 over 200=A0 watts=A0 , feed , on 500=A0 would stop=A0= the=A0 link , this one=A0 fails=A0 with=A0 25=A0 watts=A0 on 160=A0 .. th= e=A0 router=A0 is=A0 off=A0 most of the=A0 day=A0 and=A0 night=A0 , only= =A0 on=A0 with the=A0 pc , the=A0 new=A0 router=A0 is faster=A0 , from 6= (old)=A0 meg to 9 med=A0 down=A0 and=A0 500k=A0(old) to=A0 890 k upload= , but=A0 if it=A0 keeps=A0 dropping=A0 out=A0 with no=A0 cure then=A0 its= not=A0 much=A0 use for=A0 my usage=20 =A0 G, From: M0FMT=20 Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 12:26 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: Any ADSL2 BBand router / RF proof ? Hi Graham =A0 Are you sure the problem is the router? =A0 136, 500, 160 and to=A0some extent 80m here are kill the ADSL. Even at ver= y low powers. If your ADSL is cut during your transmissions only and resum= es at the original speed directly afterwards it may well be the router bei= ng temporarily being knocked out. If however you line stays down for a per= iod of time say several hours then it is not the router. What you are doin= g is putting noise (owing to RF) onto your line which is being picked up= at the exchange DSLAM. The exchange equipment (DSLAM) serving your line= will reduce data speed to ensure that a connection of sorts is maintained= . This speed can go down to below 80kb/s from which it will not recover wi= thout technical intervention by BT Open Reach. If it goes down to about 30= 0/500kb/s it may well recover it's original speed over a period of time BT= quote 72 hours yes 72 hours (I think this time period is not a technical= issue but one to stall the punters off). On a good day the recovery perio= d can be speeded up by turning the router off and disconnecting every thing from= the line and waiting. This makes a quiet line for the automatic recovery= to work.... on a good day!!! If you don't have enough life left to wait= for BT to physically do some thing then the best thing is to write to BT= HQ in London to the their CEO (his name and location can be found with a= bit of research) and tell him what you think of his outfit. I know from= experience he does not like receiving this kind of letter. You may have= your ISP as Joe Blogs Internet Provider dot Com but in reality=A0it is al= l provided by BT they own the final mile and the exchange ...... legal nic= eties to one side it is a fact. If=A0you get a good Broad=A0Band data rate of say 4/8mb/s your transmissio= ns on=A0LF/MF will only slightly degrade your ADSL but if like me on the= end of 7.5km of copper its only 1/1.5mb/s on a very good day, RF will wip= e out your ADSL for a week or more. So=A0without a lot of letter=A0writing= to BT and angry phone calls your ASDL will not return to original speed.. =A0 To maintain a usable data rate on Broad Band here I can not use 136 or 500= kc/s above a few Milli Watts at TX output about 1=A0Watt on 160m 80 about= 50Watts and on 60m and above=A0100Watts (possibly more but not tested yet= ). Also the longer you stay on the worst the speed degrades.My guess is wi= th ADSL2 having a much wider bandwidth the problem for Amateurs will exten= d further up the spectrum than shown above. =A0 Hope you are not in my situation....... Oh and don't believe all this Fibr= e stuff.=A0Open Reach have told me that one reason why Fibre is not being= rolled out like the Virgin setup is that there are only a few BT people= capable of working with Fibre. This is the reason why=A0BT is Wedded to= copper wire. So we locally have Internet breakdowns owing to Junkies and= the like ripping the Copper=A0cables out of=A0BT ducting to pay for drugs= ... Bedfordshire has had Internet disconnections for days owing to this ph= enomenon. So along with cable theft and the lack of trained staff a=A0prop= er interference free Broad Band coverage using fibre=A0in this country is= looking particularly bleak. =A0 Good luck! 73 es GL petefmt I support www.NotSpotTelecom.Com your community Telco / ISP. --- On Thu, 25/11/10, Graham wrote: From: Graham Subject: LF: Any ADSL2 BBand router / RF proof ? To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Thursday, 25 November, 2010, 22:06 Any=A0 ADSL2=A0 BBand router / RF proof ? =A0 Just upgraded to=A0 ADSL2=A0 with a=A0 orange=A0 net-gear=A0=A0 router/wif= i=A0 router, now=A0=A0 15=A0 watts=A0 on=A0 160=A0 kills=A0 the=A0 connect= ion=A0=20 =A0 router is in the=A0 same location as=A0 the old=A0 edimax , which=A0 kept= running=A0 with=A0 200 watts=A0 on 500 K=A0 and=A0 400 on Hf=20 =A0 ? any=A0=A0RF proof=A0 ADSL2=A0 on the=A0 market=A0> =A0 Tnx - G..=A0 =20 --0-1233634848-1290991480=:39676 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ken
 
Thanks for the "teach in". Tell me why is BT so keen on copper wire= it has nothing but disadvantage.Open Reach must spend millions of pounds= trying to make it work. And now with these raids on the ducting because= of the value of copper it make even more sense to change over to fibre.= However I am being told it will never happen because on lack of expertise= within BT. These comments come from Open Reach at Liverpool. Have yo= u any idea why they don't import some engineering talent? 
73 petefmt

I support www.NotSpotTelecom.Com your community Telco / ISP.
<= BR>--- On Sun, 28/11/10, Ken <ken.h.wright@btinternet.com>= wrote:

From: Ken <ken.h.wright@btinternet.com><= BR>Subject: Re: LF: Any ADSL2 BBand router / RF proof ?
To: rsgb_lf_gro= up@blacksheep.org
Date: Sunday, 28 November, 2010, 20:13

Hello Everyone.
I think you will find that with your line= length from the serving exchange  (7km)?  the S/N ratio will be= poor, a minimum of 10dB is required, my copper connection is about 2.7km= which is considered to be approaching the limit, although the tests at th= e customer NTE showed that 3Mbt/s.should have been possible. At= these line lengths any rf will swamp the DSL signal. I have discusse= d this problem at length several time with the people I worked with at Ada= stral Park ( commonly known as BT Labs), both DSL and EMC, the problem is= compounded if a) you have a long length of overhead drop wire, b) th= e number and configuration of any internal extensions, and c) th= e position of the router with respect to the incomming NTE (master socket)= . If the dropwire is long, the induced common mode interference will be tr= ansformed into differential mode before it reaches the router, any interna= l extension wiring will increase attenuation, especially if it is a 'star configurati= on.
The router should be as close as possible= to the incoming NTE. A spectral analysis of my line revealed that there= were no DSL carriers above 500kHz, hence not being able to use 500kH= z, if the router shuts down because a corrupted incoming signal, it will= start a 're-training' sequence with the DSLAM in the serving exchange, ho= wever if either the line or the router is changed, the exchange equipment= will then go though a process of determining the best possible data speed= of the new configuration, thia can take up to ten days, if during this ti= me any of the speedtest sites are used different data rates will be loged.=
 
I changed my 1st generation BT Homeh= ub router for an older BT Voyager 2500,  which improved the situ= ation with the HF bands but not at 500kHz, even with high value common mod= e chokes on everything in sight. The problem was finally solved by changin= g over to BT Infinity Fibre To The Cabinet (FTTC) with copper line length= of 400m giving data speeds of 14Mbt/s.
 
I hope some of this is both of use and in= terest you all.
 
73
Ken
M0KHW    
----- Original Message -----
From: M0FMT
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 10:= 08 AM
Subject: Re: LF: Any ADSL2 BBand ro= uter / RF proof ?

Hi Again Graham and LF
 
Hmmmmm OK looks like you are in better shape than me. A local station= who has difficulty with his ADSL has put Ferrite clamp on filters on all= leads in and out of the Modem including the power supply lead. He claims= (and I have no reason to doubt him) that this has solved his problems. Th= e modem is the new BT Black Box one. I have one of those although much mor= e reliable and faster it still suffers from my description below. The issu= e I have appears not to be Modem related but exchange based.
 
I talk to Larry regularly on 4m so next time, if I remember, I will= get the details of his solution Viz ferrite type and where on the lines= he is fitting them and forward it to you. It may help.
As before good luck with your efforts; what ever success you get plea= se publish it. Ken M0KHW Luton has an ADSL problem too= so several people would be interested I am sure.

73 es GL petefmt<= BR>
I support www.NotSpotTelecom.Com your community Telco / ISP.
--- On Fri, 26/11/10, Graham <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

From: Graham <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk>Subject: Re: LF: Any ADSL2 BBand router / RF proof ?
To: rsgb_lf_grou= p@blacksheep.org
Date: Friday, 26 November, 2010, 0:49

Ok Pete
 
This is the new  router , as its&nbs= p; in the  same place as the old one , with (now) the  same = ; filters , the  PC is  linked with a  short network = cable , the  rest of the  pc's are  linked by radio. its= the  adsl  like thats  failing
 
The edimax   router was = quite  robust , never had a drop  out on HF and only  over= 200  watts  , feed , on 500  would stop  the  li= nk , this one  fails  with  25  watts  on 160&nbs= p; .. the  router  is  off  most of the  day = ; and  night  , only  on  with the  pc , the = ; new  router  is faster  , from 6 (old)  meg to 9 med=   down  and  500k (old) to  890 k upload , but&nb= sp; if it  keeps  dropping  out  with no  cure th= en  its not  much  use for  my usage
 
G,

From: M0FMT
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 12:26 AM
Subject: Re: LF: Any ADSL2 BBand router / RF proof ?

Hi Graham
 
Are you sure the problem is the router?
 
136, 500, 160 and to some extent 80m here are kill the ADS= L. Even at very low powers. If your ADSL is cut during your transmi= ssions only and resumes at the original speed directly afterwards it may= well be the router being temporarily being knocked out. If however you li= ne stays down for a period of time say several hours then it is not the ro= uter. What you are doing is putting noise (owing to RF) onto your line whi= ch is being picked up at the exchange DSLAM. The exchange equipment (DSLAM= ) serving your line will reduce data speed to ensure that a connection of= sorts is maintained. This speed can go down to below 80kb/s from which it= will not recover without technical intervention by BT Open Reach. If it= goes down to about 300/500kb/s it may well recover it's original speed ov= er a period of time BT quote 72 hours yes 72 hours (I think this time peri= od is not a technical issue but one to stall the punters off). On a good= day the recovery period can be speeded up by turning the router off and disconnec= ting every thing from the line and waiting. This makes a quiet line for th= e automatic recovery to work.... on a good day!!! If you don't have enough= life left to wait for BT to physically do some thing then the best thing= is to write to BT HQ in London to the their CEO (his name and location ca= n be found with a bit of research) and tell him what you think of his outf= it. I know from experience he does not like receiving this kind of letter.= You may have your ISP as Joe Blogs Internet Provider dot Com but in reali= ty it is all provided by BT they own the final mile and the exchange= ...... legal niceties to one side it is a fact.
If you get a good Broad Band data rate of say 4/8mb/s your= transmissions on LF/MF will only slightly degrade your ADSL but if= like me on the end of 7.5km of copper its only 1/1.5mb/s on a very good= day, RF will wipe out your ADSL for a week or more. So without a lot= of letter writing to BT and angry phone calls your ASDL will not ret= urn to original speed..
 
To maintain a usable data rate on Broad Band here I can not use 136= or 500kc/s above a few Milli Watts at TX output about 1 Watt on 160m= 80 about 50Watts and on 60m and above 100Watts (possibly more but no= t tested yet). Also the longer you stay on the worst the speed degrades.My= guess is with ADSL2 having a much wider bandwidth the problem for Amateur= s will extend further up the spectrum than shown above.
 
Hope you are not in my situation....... Oh and don't believe all this= Fibre stuff. Open Reach have told me that one reason why Fibre is no= t being rolled out like the Virgin setup is that there are only a few BT= people capable of working with Fibre. This is the reason why BT is= Wedded to copper wire. So we locally have Internet breakdowns owing to Ju= nkies and the like ripping the Copper cables out of BT ducting= to pay for drugs... Bedfordshire has had Internet disconnections for days= owing to this phenomenon. So along with cable theft and the lack of train= ed staff a proper interference free Broad Band coverage using fibre&n= bsp;in this country is looking particularly bleak.
 
Good luck!

73 es GL petefmt

I= support www.NotSpotTelecom.Com your community Telco / ISP.

--- On= Thu, 25/11/10, Graham <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk> wrote= :

From: Graham <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk>Subject: LF: Any ADSL2 BBand router / RF proof ?
To: rsgb_lf_group@bl= acksheep.org
Date: Thursday, 25 November, 2010, 22:06

Any  ADSL2  BBand router / RF= proof ?
 
Just upgraded to  ADSL2  with= a  orange  net-gear   router/wifi  router, now&n= bsp;  15  watts  on  160  kills  the = connection 
 
router is in the  same location as&n= bsp; the old  edimax , which  kept running  with  200= watts  on 500 K  and  400 on Hf
 
? any  RF proof  ADSL2&nbs= p; on the  market >
 
Tnx - G.. 






=20 --0-1233634848-1290991480=:39676--