Return-Path: Received: from mtain-mi02.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-mi02.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.21.131.155]) by air-df07.mail.aol.com (v127_r1.1) with ESMTP id MAILINDF073-5efc4b82caf62bb; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:20:38 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-mi02.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 73CC938000145; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:20:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Njcsh-0003ik-7j for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 18:19:43 +0000 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Njcsg-0003ib-CP for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 18:19:42 +0000 Received: from web28103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com ([217.146.182.123]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Njcsg-00047M-5l for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 18:19:42 +0000 Received: (qmail 39328 invoked by uid 60001); 22 Feb 2010 18:19:35 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.co.uk; s=s1024; t=1266862775; bh=k7dU27iawPuC2FgAXvkbKiJGh93OI4LJ9GwQbX+s+Tc=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=z3vOCKrjmWb1S15iS8psdStgmZfmoziHcMkU+x6TsW20qBKx19oKtcD3OkLQcx4YbUVTvFW3lX8cNWcOnuELAoJXhiW/uKWy2F2wKPMwlvtzPwJdJ4hktj9Di+Ov47MkzhmUnbQJbhmzz0TvPkqIlU2Lst46yGYv93ijkOrGRb4= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=lrPmdxhZ3kpHQQZGTWU8wUH0Rwx/JHfxXzplBWGHImZL5yvOaRimN4V4lw9SKTJ3ZBMywYZO862W79M2MnjAbBYEaHaVTSNgf8ifFVJHn56XRJ7qfY/thkZ8JwGyojLmyMDRVkhH+a/lTKwRMLLQalPhdoa/r6RDOCq1vZ9rTcw=; Message-ID: <33183.39060.qm@web28103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: mz09mckVM1mclOZ5zrITa32etemIL7K8HOEagW8FllTIgaZMZaqAqrMC9R8SpJS7Gr8BRfn_qSvRR1N0N1N6c_.JAMYnrnD.q2xpD5Z1iWB037Q_BDXhfbxJoKGe_5bV4U2ltLyabkI_nORh9eFOpfLJhFMzoqyWjVhgUKriCh1M_H1xzTSFDMs5Z0Lr5V3WkiMbjIJNMETEfl3HJwU62p7DB81hE4YVsCTjbAeTEg.LyNJAf8D94fIBxPYEEviNrOTQEUSXHGNgxGDBM8bF1RFmc8Q9sZqBxwBgekpqQ1axkeE0vJ4iEw62TFUU Received: from [86.130.73.141] by web28103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 10:19:34 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/9.2.12 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 10:19:34 -0800 (PST) From: M0FMT To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 DomainKey-Status: good (testing) Subject: RE: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1193720606-1266862774=:39060" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-m276.2 ; domain : yahoo.co.uk DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039400cdeca4b82caf26059 X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 --0-1193720606-1266862774=:39060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Group =A0 Using software to calculate what I would need to load my inv "L"=A0 on 8.9= kc/s with my 8 Ohm O/P=A0800 Watt audio amp I get :- A coil/transformer of about 1 Henry which with my air cored former is 1400= turns,=20 2.5 km length, of 0.2mm diameter wire. A coupling loop of about 2 turns. Creating an antenna current of about 1 amp being driven by about 60kVolts.= Making=A0a coil that will be getting pretty hot!!!!! Probably red hot. Any suggestions?? =A0 =A0 =A0=A0 73 es GL petefmt --- On Mon, 22/2/10, James Cowburn wrote: From: James Cowburn Subject: RE: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Monday, 22 February, 2010, 16:31 All we need is a wire strung between K2 and Everest summits and fed from base camp below? -----Original Message----- From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Warren Ziegler Sent: 22 February 2010 16:23 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz No license is required in the US below 9kHz. I agree with Mal its very difficult to radiate a signal on 137kHz, let alone 9kHz! --=20 73 Warren K2ORS =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 WD2XGJ =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 WD2XSH/23 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 WE2XEB/2 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 WE2XGR/1 On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 11:10 AM, ALAN MELIA wrote: > Hi as far as the Uk is concerned it is not allowed. You probably need to contact Andy G4JNT for details he did approach the regulator at one time maybe around 2001/2 when Geri was doing his tests the answer as I remember was:- > Frequencies below 10kHz are not allocated by International Treaty but we control all frequencies between DC and gamma rays, and no we will not be issuing any licences for that region. > > I believe that was the RadioCommunications Agency things may be differen= t now with Ofcomm. The best person to know whether an approach would be worthwhile would be John Gould G4WKL who nursed the 500k stuff through. > > Alan G3NYK > > --- On Mon, 22/2/10, Stefan_Sch=E4fer wrote: > >> From: Stefan_Sch=E4fer >> Subject: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz >> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >> Date: Monday, 22 February, 2010, 11:32 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Ok Roger, >> >> >> >> And do you know if f<9kHz is free for other countries in >> europe as >> well? What about the UK? >> >> >> >> If such a grounded dipole is best, than it is easy to build >> a big >> antenna without the problems we have on LF (getting the >> wire high above >> ground). So we also could try big/long antennas. Waht do >> you mean with >> amateur levels? Power range is clear, something arround >> 500W+-6dB. But >> the antenna? Sure, if you think about building an antenna >> in the >> garden, say 2x20m, is not very effective but what about >> 2x500m in a >> forrest, perhaps with the loading coils (which will be on a >> ferrite >> toroid i think) mounted 300m apart from the center? That >> could be >> interesting and easy to try. No tower, no earth radials, >> just 2 wires >> hung up on some trees and measured the impedance at the >> feed point, >> that would be a first step. >> >> This antenna will still be bad but what we are doing -on LF >> it is the >> same- is beeing fascinated to reach a good distance and >> make some >> contacts at very low frequencies, although it would be much >> easier on >> 40/80m... >> >> And so, if one would reach 50km with such a short dipole, >> the >> fascination would be enormous, isn't it? ;-) >> >> >> >> Has anyone, except Horst, tried such experiments as well? >> >> >> >> With the ground wave, one could reach the whole europe, i >> expect. But >> that are dreams... >> >> >> >> Stefan/DK7FC >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Am 22.02.2010 11:03, schrieb Roger Lapthorn: >> >> =A0 At this frequency, widely spaced,=A0grounded >> electrode pairs are >> probably the best "antenna".=A0 There are >> references to how these work in >> the literature (for example NATO AGAARD papers from the >> 1960s, >> available on the internet I believe) and on one of the >> German ham sites >> (DK8KW) - see http://www.qru.de/#vlf=A0. >> >> =A0 Don't expect great ranges: up to 10kms is a fair >> aim with modern >> signal processing=A0technology and reasonable (amateur >> levels) available >> power. Project Sanguine achieved worldwide coverage to >> submarines at >> 76Hz (yes Hertz!) but used enormous power and antennas >> stretching for >> 100s of kms. >> >> =A0 73s >> =A0 Roger G3XBM >> >> >> >> >> >> =A0 2010/2/22 Stefan Sch=E4fer >> >> >> =A0 Hello Horst, >> >> >> >> That sounds really nice. If it would be easy to find some >> motivated OMs >> in the near field (31km) ;-), that would be an interesting >> field to >> test. >> >> >> >> Yesterday i have thought about possible antenna >> configurations for that >> range and got the idea that one could use a forrest as an >> antenna >> tower. There, you could hang up 100s meters of wire, in >> series and in >> parallel. You do not need to have that area beside your >> house. Nobody >> will see the wire and nobody will care about it. >> >> Since summer 2007 i have a horizontal loop antenna mounted >> in some >> trees on my hill with excellent results on all HF bands and >> also 160m. >> The loop has 130m and is mounted up to 12m above ground. >> Perfect >> matching from 160m to 10m with my symmetric tuner. I even >> tried >> matching on 2200m without a problem but with bad ODX >> results, of >> course. But if one would try 2x 10*100m on VLF, the ODX >> would be >> interesting... >> >> >> >> JO30OT is abt 160km from JN49IS and thus a little far i >> think ;-) >> >> >> >> What is your RX antenna and have you already catched some >> commercial >> VLF stations in that range? Are there some? >> >> >> >> 73, Stefan >> >> >> >> PS: One can be sure that there will never be SSB operation >> ;-) >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> >> >> Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >> im Auftrag von Horst St=F6cker >> >> >> Gesendet: Mo 22.02.2010 09:29 >> >> =A0 =A0 An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >> >> >> Betreff: RE: LF: AW: Beaconing on 8.79 kHz in QRSS >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Hallo Stefan, >> >> >> >> there was a notice in Funkamateur 12/05, S. 1287, that in >> DL the range >> <9kHz is free. >> >> >> >> I could not believe that so I asked the BNetzA and after a >> while I got >> a letter which confirmed that. >> >> >> >> So there nothing you've got to do for getting a >> licence. You do not >> need one. >> >> >> >> There is no limitation of technical parameters like >> bandwith or power. >> >> >> >> Hard to believe in german, but obviously true. >> >> >> >> My QTH is Siegburg JO30OT >> >> >> >> Horst >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> >> NEU: Mit WEB.DE DSL =FCber 1000,- =BF sparen! >> >> =A0 =A0 http://produkte.web.de/go/02/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> =A0 http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ >> >> =A0 http://www.g3xbm.co.uk >> >> =A0 http://www.youtube.com/user/G3XBM >> >> G3XBM =A0 =A0GQRP 1678 =A0 =A0 =A0ISWL >> G11088 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> ---------------------------- >> Dipl.-Ing. Stefan Sch=E4fer >> Institut f=FCr Umweltphysik der Universit=E4t >> Heidelberg >> Im Neuenheimer Feld 229 >> D-69120 Heidelberg, Germany >> >> schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de >> Phone: (+49) (0)6221 546387 >> Fax: (+49) (0)6221 546405 >> >> www.iup.uni-heidelberg.de >> >> >> > > =20 --0-1193720606-1266862774=:39060 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Group
 
Using software to calculate what I would need to load my inv "L" = ; on 8.9 kc/s with my 8 Ohm O/P 800 Watt audio amp I get :-
A coil/transformer of about 1 Henry which with my air cored former is= 1400 turns,
2.5 km length, of 0.2mm diameter wire.
A coupling loop of about 2 turns.
Creating an antenna current of about 1 amp being driven by about 60kV= olts. Making a coil that will be getting pretty hot!!!!! Probably red= hot.
Any suggestions??
 
 
  

73 es GL petefmt

--- On Mon, 22/2/10,= James Cowburn <james.cowburn@virgin.net> wrote:

From: James Cowburn <james.cowburn@virgin.n= et>
Subject: RE: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.or= g
Date: Monday, 22 February, 2010, 16:31

All we need is a wire strung between K2 and Everest= summits and fed from
base camp below?



-----Original Mes= sage-----
From: owne= r-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
[mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf= Of Warren Ziegler
Sent: 22 February 2010 16:23
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject:= Re: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz

No license is required in the US below 9kHz.<= BR>
I agree with Mal its very difficult to radiate a signal on 137kHz,= let
alone 9kHz!
--
73 Warren K2ORS
      &nbs= p;         WD2XGJ
                WD2XSH/= 23
                WE2XEB/2
=                 WE2XGR/1


On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 11:10 AM, ALAN MELIA <alan.melia@btinternet.com>
wrote:
>= Hi as far as the Uk is concerned it is not allowed. You probably need to<= BR>contact Andy G4JNT for details he did approach the regulator at one tim= e
maybe around 2001/2 when Geri was doing his tests the answer as I rem= ember
was:-
> Frequencies below 10kHz are not allocated by Intern= ational Treaty but we
control all frequencies between DC and gamma rays= , and no we will not be
issuing any licences for that region.
>> I believe that was the RadioCommunications Agency things may be dif= ferent
now with Ofcomm. The best person to know whether an approach would be
wort= hwhile would be John Gould G4WKL who nursed the 500k stuff through.
>= ;
> Alan G3NYK
>
> --- On Mon, 22/2/10, Stefan_Sch=E4fer=
<Stefan.Schae= fer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> wrote:
>
>> From: Stefan_= Sch=E4fer <Stefan= .Schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de>
>> Subject: LF: VLF_8.79= kHz
>> To: rsgb_lf_= group@blacksheep.org
>> Date: Monday, 22 February, 2010, 11:32
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>= >
>>
>>
>> Ok Roger,
>>
>>=
>>
>> And do you know if f<9kHz is free for other co= untries in
>> europe as
>> well? What about the UK?
&= gt;>
>>
>>
>> If such a grounded dipole is= best, than it is easy to build
>> a big
>> antenna with= out the problems we have on LF (getting the
>> wire high above>> ground). So we also could try big/long antennas. Waht do
>= > you mean with
>> amateur levels? Power range is clear, somet= hing arround
>> 500W+-6dB. But
>> the antenna? Sure, if= you think about building an antenna
>> in the
>> garden= , say 2x20m, is not very effective but what about
>> 2x500m in a<= BR>>> forrest, perhaps with the loading coils (which will be on a>> ferrite
>> toroid i think) mounted 300m apart from the center?= That
>> could be
>> interesting and easy to try. No tow= er, no earth radials,
>> just 2 wires
>> hung up on some= trees and measured the impedance at the
>> feed point,
>&g= t; that would be a first step.
>>
>> This antenna will= still be bad but what we are doing -on LF
>> it is the
>&g= t; same- is beeing fascinated to reach a good distance and
>> mak= e some
>> contacts at very low frequencies, although it would be= much
>> easier on
>> 40/80m...
>>
>>= And so, if one would reach 50km with such a short dipole,
>> the=
>> fascination would be enormous, isn't it? ;-)
>>
&= gt;>
>>
>> Has anyone, except Horst, tried such exper= iments as well?
>>
>>
>>
>> With the= ground wave, one could reach the whole europe, i
>> expect. But
>>= that are dreams...
>>
>>
>>
>> Stefan= /DK7FC
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>= >
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 22.02.2010 11:03,= schrieb Roger Lapthorn:
>>
>>   At this frequency,= widely spaced, grounded
>> electrode pairs are
>>= probably the best "antenna".  There are
>> references to ho= w these work in
>> the literature (for example NATO AGAARD papers= from the
>> 1960s,
>> available on the internet I belie= ve) and on one of the
>> German ham sites
>> (DK8KW) -= see http://www.qru.de/#vlf .
>>
>>   Don't= expect great ranges: up to 10kms is a fair
>> aim with modern>> signal processing technology and reasonable (amateur
>> levels) av= ailable
>> power. Project Sanguine achieved worldwide coverage to=
>> submarines at
>> 76Hz (yes Hertz!) but used enormous= power and antennas
>> stretching for
>> 100s of kms.>>
>>   73s
>>   Roger G3XBM
>>= ;
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   2010/= 2/22 Stefan Sch=E4fer
>> <schaefer@hst.tu-darmstadt.de>
>>
>> &nb= sp; Hello Horst,
>>
>>
>>
>> That soun= ds really nice. If it would be easy to find some
>> motivated OMs=
>> in the near field (31km) ;-), that would be an interesting>> field to
>> test.
>>
>>
>>>> Yesterday i have thought about possible antenna
>> configuration= s for that
>> range and got the idea that one could use a forrest= as an
>> antenna
>> tower. There, you could hang up 100= s meters of wire, in
>> series and in
>> parallel. You= do not need to have that area beside your
>> house. Nobody
&g= t;> will see the wire and nobody will care about it.
>>
>= ;> Since summer 2007 i have a horizontal loop antenna mounted
>&g= t; in some
>> trees on my hill with excellent results on all HF= bands and
>> also 160m.
>> The loop has 130m and is mou= nted up to 12m above ground.
>> Perfect
>> matching from= 160m to 10m with my symmetric tuner. I even
>> tried
>>= matching on 2200m without a problem but with bad ODX
>> results,= of
>> course. But if one would try 2x 10*100m on VLF, the ODX>> would be
>> interesting...
>>
>>
>>>> JO30OT is abt 160km from JN49IS and thus a little far i
>= > think ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>> What is you= r RX antenna and have you already catched some
>> commercial
&= gt;> VLF stations in that range? Are there some?
>>
>>= ;
>>
>> 73, Stefan
>>
>>
>>>> PS: One can be sure that there will never be SSB operation
&= gt;> ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________= __________________
>>
>>
>>
>> Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@black= sheep.org
>> im Auftrag von Horst St=F6cker
>>
&g= t;>
>> Gesendet: Mo 22.02.2010 09:29
>>
>>=     An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep= .org
>>
>>
>> Betreff: RE: LF: AW: Beaconin= g on 8.79 kHz in QRSS
>>
>>
>>
>>
&= gt;>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hallo Stefan,
&= gt;>
>>
>>
>> there was a notice in Funkamat= eur 12/05, S. 1287, that in
>> DL the range
>> <9kHz= is free.
>>
>>
>>
>> I could not beli= eve that so I asked the BNetzA and after a
>> while I got
>= > a letter which confirmed that.
>>
>>
>>>> So there nothing you've got to do for getting a
>> lice= nce. You do not
>> need one.
>>
>>
>><= BR>>> There is no limitation of technical parameters like
>>= ; bandwith or power.
>>
>>
>>
>> Hard to believe in= german, but obviously true.
>>
>>
>>
>&g= t; My QTH is Siegburg JO30OT
>>
>>
>>
>&g= t; Horst
>>
>> _________________________________________= __________________
>>
>> NEU: Mit WEB.DE DSL =FCber 1000= ,- =BF sparen!
>>
>>     http://produkte.web.de= /go/02/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
&= gt;>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>= ;> --
>>
>>
>>
>>   http://g3x= bm-qrp.blogspot.com/
>>
>>   http://www.g3xbm.co.uk<= /A>
>>
>>   http://www.youtube.com/user/G3XBM
>>
>> G3XBM    GQRP 1678      = ;ISWL
>> G11088
>>
>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>> --
>> ------------------------= ----
>> Dipl.-Ing. Stefan Sch=E4fer
>> Institut f=FCr Um= weltphysik der Universit=E4t
>> Heidelberg
>> Im Neuenhe= imer Feld 229
>> D-69120 Heidelberg, Germany
>>
>&= gt; schaefer@iup.uni-heidel= berg.de
>> Phone: (+49) (0)6221 546387
>> Fax: (+49)= (0)6221 546405
>>
>> www.iup.uni-heidelberg.de
>>
>>
>>
>
= >



=20 --0-1193720606-1266862774=:39060--