Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-dh01.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 81FB6380000BB; Wed, 15 Feb 2012 18:15:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Rxo48-0006m0-9o for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2012 23:15:12 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Rxo47-0006lr-I3 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2012 23:15:11 +0000 Received: from mail-we0-f171.google.com ([74.125.82.171]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Rxo45-0007LN-4D for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2012 23:15:11 +0000 Received: by werb14 with SMTP id b14so1765867wer.16 for ; Wed, 15 Feb 2012 15:15:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.138.13 with SMTP id z13mr38197wei.41.1329347702626; Wed, 15 Feb 2012 15:15:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.138.13 with SMTP id z13mr38194wei.41.1329347702504; Wed, 15 Feb 2012 15:15:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from D810 (host-89-243-229-29.as13285.net. [89.243.229.29]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y1sm17251280wiw.6.2012.02.15.15.14.59 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 15 Feb 2012 15:15:01 -0800 (PST) From: "GW0EZY (Terry)" To: References: <6C05E5021A484E229E4D20124C3D4AA9@TraceyPC><002d01cceb30$87c42cc0$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf><4F3A8898.40302@xs4all.nl><7E7DFBB4D102A04DB5ADC88D66628A4A015771@ICTS-S-MBX5.luna.kuleuven.be><002801ccec2a$6b148430$1502a8c0@Clemens04> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 23:14:57 -0000 Message-ID: <2E9209A2DE024870A8A3FF9E2AD8B8A4@D810> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 Thread-Index: AczsKz22I0q9wPPMRNWNbRvI6wPsFQAA7uRw In-Reply-To: X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQk+joopNsUMCCeWpuFxqU8s0p2fp07JRtpxeG7g4HC84qqvDVv3317hZqm3/05lR9MdVmcIVjXcv/7tz+ewi0oH+YJzW8ehuivrgT2oblUxRWCek24= X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=0.879,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 Subject: RE: LF: Re: WRC-12 Approves the New 472-479 kHz Amateur Radio Allocation Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0110_01CCEC37.A3A2BE90" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=HTML_40_50, HTML_FONTCOLOR_UNKNOWN,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:456838208:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d41154f3c3cae283f X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0110_01CCEC37.A3A2BE90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andy is absolutely right. Most of the countries that objected to this allocation are the "usual suspects" often not permitting any amateur radio and certainly objecting to any increase in allocations to the amateur service as a matter of principle. A similar footnote in the International Radio Regulations (agreed in 2007) exists for the 136 kHz band: 5.67 Additional allocation: in Mongolia, Kyrgyzstan and Turkmenistan, the band 130-148.5 kHz is also allocated to the radionavigation service on a secondary basis. Within and between these countries this service shall have an equal right to operate. (WRC-07) 5.67A Stations in the amateur service using frequencies in the band 135.7-137.8 kHz shall not exceed a maximum radiated power of 1 W (e.i.r.p.) and shall not cause harmful interference to stations of the radionavigation service operating in countries listed in No. 5.67. (WRC-07) 5.67B The use of the band 135.7-137.8 kHz in Algeria, Egypt, Iran (Islamic Republic of), Iraq, Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, Lebanon, Syrian Arab Republic, Sudan and Tunisia is limited to the fixed and maritime mobile services. The amateur service shall not be used in the above-mentioned countries in the band 135.7-137.8 kHz, and this should be taken into account by the countries authorizing such use. (WRC-07) It was extremely unusual and completely unnecessary to have such a "non-allocation" footnote in the RR. These countries are unlikely to have sufficient monitoring capability to prepare a detailed interference submission to the ITU. Also, the relevant assignments must be registered with the ITU to claim protection. Each Head of Delegation at a WRC signs the Final Acts but this is simply an undertaking that there is no major reservation and the country concerned "promises" not to do anything that would jeopardise the operation of this International Treaty. However, each country is supposed to formally ratify the Final Acts at some future date - in some cases this can take forever as some countries simply do not have the national legislation in place to achieve it. Even developed countries take some time e.g. Australia ratified the WRC 2003 Final Acts in 2006 - only a year before the next WRC! The CEPT (includes Western Europe as well as Eastern Europe including Russia and CIS) makes joint proposals to each WRC. All EU countries are supposed to formally support these positions. Non EU countries usually do (e.g. Norway, Switzerland) but Russia and CIS usually also make their own proposals which can oppose CEPT. There were 42 CEPT countries supporting the CEPT proposal for this agenda item (only Russia and some CIS did not). All EU countries supported. The CEPT proposed 472-480 kHz at 5w e.i.r.p., so a result of 472-479 kHz was a good compromise! Once the WRC has completed and Final Acts signed, the CEPT Electronics Communication Committee (ECC) will incorporate the WRC results into the current recommendations for European harmonised frequency use which all EU countries normally adopt into their national frequency allocation tables. This can take time! For UK amateurs, Ofcom is rather busy organising the massive amount of frequency use associated with the Olympic games in London this summer. We might have to wait. Although I was pleasantly surprised to get my 5 MHz permit issued within 5 days just after New Year 2012. The 5 MHz use is of course also on a non-interference basis and has far more international interference potential but seems to work without problem. 73 Terry _____ From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Andy Talbot Sent: 15 February 2012 21:45 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Re: WRC-12 Approves the New 472-479 kHz Amateur Radio Allocation But what is interference? If none is reported, none is caused. And who is going to report interference to a service no one uses 'Andy www.g4jnt.com On 15 February 2012 21:40, Clemens Paul wrote: Greetings all, I wonder what "secondary user on non-interference basis" means in practice. As we know most NDBs are AM modulated with about 1kHz. Now it would be interesting to know what selectivity/bandwidth DF receivers for NDBs in aeroplanes might have. Imagine they have 1kHz or even 2kHz (quite possible). For non interfering such a receiver one would have to stay well without that BW. Hence with a few NDBs spread between 422 and 479kHz there would virtually remain no usable frequency for us amateurs if we wanted to make 100% sure not to interfere any aeroplanes' beacon reception. 73 Clemens DL4RAJ ------=_NextPart_000_0110_01CCEC37.A3A2BE90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Andy is absolutely right. Most of = the countries that objected to this allocation are the “usual = suspects” often not permitting any amateur radio and certainly objecting to any = increase in allocations to the amateur service as a matter of principle. A = similar footnote in the International Radio Regulations (agreed in 2007) exists = for the 136 kHz band:

 

5.67 Additional allocation: in = Mongolia, Kyrgyzstan and Turkmenistan, the band 130-148.5 kHz is

also allocated to the = radionavigation service on a secondary basis. Within and between these = countries

this service shall have an equal = right to operate. (WRC-07)

 

5.67A Stations in the amateur = service using frequencies in the band 135.7-137.8 kHz shall not exceed = a

maximum radiated power of 1 W = (e.i.r.p.) and shall not cause harmful interference to stations of = the

radionavigation service operating = in countries listed in No. 5.67. (WRC-07)

 

5.67B The use of the band = 135.7-137.8 kHz in Algeria, = Egypt, Iran (Islamic Republic of), Iraq, Libyan

Arab Jamahiriya, Lebanon, = Syrian Arab Republic, Sudan and Tunisia is limited to the fixed and maritime

mobile services. The amateur = service shall not be used in the above-mentioned countries in the = band

135.7-137.8 kHz, and this should be = taken into account by the countries authorizing such use. = (WRC-07)

 

It was extremely unusual and = completely unnecessary to have such a “non-allocation” footnote in the RR. These = countries are unlikely to have sufficient monitoring capability to prepare a = detailed interference submission to the ITU. Also, the relevant assignments must = be registered with the ITU to claim = protection.

 

Each Head of Delegation at a WRC = signs the Final Acts but this is simply an undertaking that there is no major = reservation and the country concerned “promises” not to do anything that = would jeopardise the operation of this International Treaty. However, each = country is supposed to formally ratify the Final Acts at some future date – = in some cases this can take forever as some countries simply do not have the national legislation in place to achieve it. Even developed countries take some = time e.g. Australia ratified the WRC 2003 Final Acts in 2006 – only a year before the = next WRC!

 

The CEPT (includes Western Europe = as well as Eastern Europe including Russia and CIS) makes joint proposals to each WRC. All EU countries are = supposed to formally support these positions. Non EU countries usually do (e.g. = Norway, Switzerland) but Russia and CIS usually also make their own proposals which can oppose CEPT. = There were 42 CEPT countries supporting the CEPT proposal for this agenda item = (only Russia and some CIS did not). All EU countries supported. The CEPT proposed 472-480 kHz = at 5w e.i.r.p., so a result of 472-479 kHz was a good = compromise!

 

Once the WRC has completed and = Final Acts signed, the CEPT Electronics Communication Committee (ECC) will = incorporate the WRC results into the current recommendations for European harmonised = frequency use which all EU countries normally adopt into their national frequency = allocation tables. This can take time! For UK amateurs, Ofcom is rather busy organising the massive amount of = frequency use associated with the Olympic games in London this summer. We might have to wait. Although I was pleasantly surprised = to get my 5 MHz permit issued within 5 days just after New Year 2012. The 5 MHz = use is of course also on a non-interference basis and has far more = international interference potential but seems to work without = problem.

 

73 = Terry

From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Andy Talbot
Sent: 15 February 2012 = 21:45
To: = rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: LF: Re: = WRC-12 Approves the New 472-479 kHz Amateur Radio Allocation

 

But what is interference?   =

If none is reported, none is = caused.

 

And who is going to report interference to a service no one = uses

 

'Andy

 



 

On 15 February 2012 21:40, Clemens Paul <cpaul@gmx.net> = wrote:

Greetings = all,

I wonder what "secondary user on non-interference basis" means = in practice.
As we know most NDBs are AM modulated with about 1kHz.
Now it would be interesting to know what selectivity/bandwidth DF = receivers
for NDBs in aeroplanes might have.
Imagine they have 1kHz or even 2kHz (quite possible).
For non interfering such a receiver one would have to stay well without = that
BW.
Hence with a few NDBs spread between 422 and 479kHz there would
virtually remain no usable frequency for us amateurs if we wanted to = make
100% sure not to interfere any aeroplanes' beacon reception.

73
Clemens
DL4RAJ

 

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