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Alan, Rik and Stefan
=A0
Thank you for the practical solutions...... I am reading up on the earth=
conduction work done by John Taylor it may be possible for me to adapt so=
me of his methods for this location.
I like the idea of the ground electrodes I will lay out some cable and ini=
tially see how much current I can make flow into the ground=A0using the 10=
0Watt amp. Then see how I get on from there. If I get a result of sorts I=
will report back but silence will mean failure....:-))
73 es GL petefmt
--- On Mon, 22/2/10, ALAN MELIA <alan.melia@btinternet.com> wrote:
From: ALAN MELIA <alan.melia@btinternet.com>
Subject: RE: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Date: Monday, 22 February, 2010, 23:09
Peter, Why load it and try to feed it as a current fed extremely short aer=
ial. Would it be easier to calculate a parallel tuned circuit and feed it=
off the top....voltage feed. You could then use a much smaller inductance=
and a few farads and have a very narrow bandwidth. The efficiency would=
still be minute but the firework display after dark would be a wonder to=
behold! :-))=A0 a later day Tesla.....
Actually you would get a much "bigger" aerial by putting two stakes in the=
ground. This gives a loop because the skin depth at these freqencies can=
be 10s of metres probably more than the height of your inv "L". It is als=
o easier to feed via a transformer like a loop. (from the book I reference=
d)
Alan G3NYK
--- On Mon, 22/2/10, M0FMT <m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> From: M0FMT <m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: RE: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz
> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
> Date: Monday, 22 February, 2010, 22:43
>=20
> Yep Rik
> =A0
> So how do=A0I load it?
> =A0
> I agree there is about 780 Watts being disapated in
> the coil so it would act like a one bar electric fire while
> the wire held out before melting.=20
> =A0
> I have other options of about 400 watts, 250 Watts and
> about 100 Watts of audio to try out.=20
> =A0
> I need a plan that does not contain unobtainum like
> most of the RSGB designs in the LF Handbook.
> =A0
> I want to use an air core transformer if at all
> possible....... there=A0is a=A0lot of pontificating on
> this reflector=A0about this subject but=A0I am looking
> for a practical method of loading a wire antenna and need
> help, ideas-wise.=A0
>=20
> If I can load it with any=A0of the power levels
> above=A0there are=A0LF stations who may cooperate in
> doing an RX test like=A0G7NKS about 6.5 km away possibly
> G3xiz or M0jxm=A0roughly 10km away.=20
> =A0
> May be trying to load a piece of wire, which is a
> miniscule fraction of a wave length,=A0in the
> conventional way is not the answer.
> =A0
> So=A0I am open to ideas (practical ones)......
> anyone??=A0
>=20
> 73 es GL petefmt
>=20
> --- On Mon, 22/2/10, Rik Strobbe
> <Rik.Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> From: Rik Strobbe <Rik.Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be>
> Subject: RE: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz
> To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org"
> <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
> Date: Monday, 22 February, 2010, 21:24
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Pete,
> =A0
> 2.5km Cu wire
> of 0.2mm has a resistance of 1345 Ohm.
> So even if the
> coil doen't get hot by the HV it certainly will by the
> dissipated power.
> =A0
> 73, Rik=A0
> ON7YD - OR7T
> =A0
>=20
>=20
> Van:
> owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
> [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens M0FMT
> [m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk]
> Verzonden: maandag 22 februari 2010 19:19
> Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
> Onderwerp: RE: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Hi Group
> =A0
> Using software to calculate what I would need to load
> my inv "L"=A0 on 8.9 kc/s with my 8 Ohm
> O/P=A0800 Watt audio amp I get :-
> A coil/transformer of about 1 Henry which with my air
> cored former is 1400 turns,=20
> 2.5 km length, of 0.2mm diameter wire.
> A coupling loop of about 2 turns.
> Creating an antenna current of about 1 amp being
> driven by about 60kVolts. Making=A0a coil that will be
> getting pretty hot!!!!! Probably red hot.
> Any suggestions??
> =A0
> =A0
> =A0=A0
>=20
> 73 es GL petefmt
>=20
> --- On Mon, 22/2/10, James Cowburn
> <james.cowburn@virgin.net> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> From: James Cowburn <james.cowburn@virgin.net>
> Subject: RE: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz
> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
> Date: Monday, 22 February, 2010, 16:31
>=20
>=20
> All we need is a wire strung between
> K2 and Everest summits and fed from
> base camp below?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
> [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]
> On Behalf Of Warren Ziegler
> Sent: 22 February 2010 16:23
> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
> Subject: Re: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz
>=20
> No license is required in the US below 9kHz.
>=20
> I agree with Mal its very difficult to radiate a signal on
> 137kHz, let
> alone 9kHz!
> --=20
> 73 Warren K2ORS
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0
>=A0 WD2XGJ
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0
> WD2XSH/23
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0
> WE2XEB/2
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0
> WE2XGR/1
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 11:10 AM, ALAN MELIA <alan.melia@btinternet.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi as far as the Uk is concerned it is not allowed.
> You probably need to
> contact Andy G4JNT for details he did approach the
> regulator at one time
> maybe around 2001/2 when Geri was doing his tests the
> answer as I remember
> was:-
> > Frequencies below 10kHz are not allocated by
> International Treaty but we
> control all frequencies between DC and gamma rays, and no
> we will not be
> issuing any licences for that region.
> >
> > I believe that was the RadioCommunications Agency
> things may be different
> now
>=A0 with Ofcomm. The best person to know whether an approach
> would be
> worthwhile would be John Gould G4WKL who nursed the 500k
> stuff through.
> >
> > Alan G3NYK
> >
> > --- On Mon, 22/2/10, Stefan_Sch=E4fer
> <Stefan.Schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de>
> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Stefan_Sch=E4fer <Stefan.Schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de>
> >> Subject: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz
> >> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
> >> Date: Monday, 22 February, 2010,
>=A0 11:32
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Ok Roger,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> And do you know if f<9kHz is free for other
> countries in
> >> europe as
> >> well? What about the UK?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> If such a grounded dipole is best, than it is easy
> to build
> >> a big
> >> antenna without the problems we have on LF
> (getting the
> >> wire high above
> >> ground). So we also could try big/long antennas.
> Waht do
> >> you mean with
> >> amateur levels? Power range is clear, something
> arround
> >> 500W+-6dB. But
> >> the antenna? Sure, if you think about building an
> antenna
> >> in the
> >> garden, say 2x20m, is not very effective but what
> about
> >> 2x500m in a
> >> forrest, perhaps with the loading coils (which
> will be on a
> >>
>=A0 ferrite
> >> toroid i think) mounted 300m apart from the
> center? That
> >> could be
> >> interesting and easy to try. No tower, no earth
> radials,
> >> just 2 wires
> >> hung up on some trees and measured the impedance
> at the
> >> feed point,
> >> that would be a first step.
> >>
> >> This antenna will still be bad but what we are
> doing -on LF
> >> it is the
> >> same- is beeing fascinated to reach a good
> distance and
> >> make some
> >> contacts at very low frequencies, although it
> would be much
> >> easier on
> >> 40/80m...
> >>
> >> And so, if one would reach 50km with such a short
> dipole,
> >> the
> >> fascination would be enormous, isn't it? ;-)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Has anyone, except Horst, tried such experiments
> as well?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> With the ground wave,
>=A0 one could reach the whole europe, i
> >> expect. But
> >> that are dreams...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Stefan/DK7FC
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Am 22.02.2010 11:03, schrieb Roger Lapthorn:
> >>
> >> =A0 At this frequency, widely
> spaced,=A0grounded
> >> electrode pairs are
> >> probably the best "antenna".=A0 There
> are
> >> references to how these work in
> >> the literature (for example NATO AGAARD papers
> from the
> >> 1960s,
> >> available on the internet I believe) and on one of
> the
> >> German ham sites
> >> (DK8KW) - see http://www.qru.de/#vlf=A0.
> >>
> >> =A0 Don't expect great ranges: up to 10kms
> is a fair
> >> aim with modern
> >> signal
>=A0 processing=A0technology and reasonable (amateur
> >> levels) available
> >> power. Project Sanguine achieved worldwide
> coverage to
> >> submarines at
> >> 76Hz (yes Hertz!) but used enormous power and
> antennas
> >> stretching for
> >> 100s of kms.
> >>
> >> =A0 73s
> >> =A0 Roger G3XBM
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> =A0 2010/2/22 Stefan Sch=E4fer
> >> <schaefer@hst.tu-darmstadt.de>
> >>
> >> =A0 Hello Horst,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> That sounds really nice. If it would be easy to
> find some
> >> motivated OMs
> >> in the near field (31km) ;-), that would be an
> interesting
> >> field to
> >> test.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>=A0 Yesterday i have thought about possible antenna
> >> configurations for that
> >> range and got the idea that one could use a
> forrest as an
> >> antenna
> >> tower. There, you could hang up 100s meters of
> wire, in
> >> series and in
> >> parallel. You do not need to have that area beside
> your
> >> house. Nobody
> >> will see the wire and nobody will care about it.
> >>
> >> Since summer 2007 i have a horizontal loop antenna
> mounted
> >> in some
> >> trees on my hill with excellent results on all HF
> bands and
> >> also 160m.
> >> The loop has 130m and is mounted up to 12m above
> ground.
> >> Perfect
> >> matching from 160m to 10m with my symmetric tuner.
> I even
> >> tried
> >> matching on 2200m without a problem but with bad
> ODX
> >> results, of
> >> course. But if one would try 2x 10*100m on VLF,
> the ODX
> >>
>=A0 would be
> >> interesting...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> JO30OT is abt 160km from JN49IS and thus a little
> far i
> >> think ;-)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> What is your RX antenna and have you already
> catched some
> >> commercial
> >> VLF stations in that range? Are there some?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 73, Stefan
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> PS: One can be sure that there will never be SSB
> operation
> >> ;-)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
> >> im Auftrag von Horst St=F6cker
> >>
> >>
> >> Gesendet: Mo 22.02.2010 09:29
> >>
> >> =A0 =A0
>=A0 An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
> >>
> >>
> >> Betreff: RE: LF: AW: Beaconing on 8.79 kHz in
> QRSS
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hallo Stefan,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> there was a notice in Funkamateur 12/05, S. 1287,
> that in
> >> DL the range
> >> <9kHz is free.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I could not believe that so I asked the BNetzA and
> after a
> >> while I got
> >> a letter which confirmed that.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> So there nothing you've got to do for getting
> a
> >> licence. You do not
> >> need one.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> There is no limitation of technical parameters
> like
> >> bandwith or
>=A0 power.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hard to believe in german, but obviously true.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> My QTH is Siegburg JO30OT
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Horst
> >>
> >>
> ___________________________________________________________
> >>
> >> NEU: Mit WEB.DE DSL =FCber 1000,- =BF sparen!
> >>
> >> =A0 =A0 http://produkte.web.de/go/02/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> =A0 http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/
> >>
> >> =A0 http://www.g3xbm.co.uk
> >>
> >> =A0 http://www.youtube.com/user/G3XBM
> >>
> >> G3XBM =A0 =A0GQRP 1678 =A0 =A0
> =A0ISWL
> >> G11088
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> ----------------------------
> >> Dipl.-Ing. Stefan Sch=E4fer
> >> Institut f=FCr Umweltphysik der Universit=E4t
> >> Heidelberg
> >> Im Neuenheimer Feld 229
> >> D-69120 Heidelberg, Germany
> >>
> >> schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de
> >> Phone: (+49) (0)6221 546387
> >> Fax: (+49) (0)6221 546405
> >>
> >>
>=A0 www.iup.uni-heidelberg.de
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>
=20
--0-1212119198-1266881795=:39843
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D=
"top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV>Alan, Rik and Stefan</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thank you for the practical solutions...... I am reading up on the ea=
rth conduction work done by John Taylor it may be possible for me to adapt=
some of his methods for this location.</DIV>
<DIV>I like the idea of the ground electrodes I will lay out some cable an=
d initially see how much current I can make flow into the ground usin=
g the 100Watt amp. Then see how I get on from there. If I get a result of=
sorts I will report back but silence will mean failure....:-))<BR><BR>73=
es GL petefmt<BR><BR>--- On <B>Mon, 22/2/10, ALAN MELIA <I><alan.melia=
@btinternet.com></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT:=
5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From: ALAN MELIA <alan.melia@btinternet.com=
><BR>Subject: RE: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz<BR>To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org<=
BR>Date: Monday, 22 February, 2010, 23:09<BR><BR>
<DIV class=3DplainMail>Peter, Why load it and try to feed it as a current=
fed extremely short aerial. Would it be easier to calculate a parallel tu=
ned circuit and feed it off the top....voltage feed. You could then use a=
much smaller inductance and a few farads and have a very narrow bandwidth=
. The efficiency would still be minute but the firework display after dark=
would be a wonder to behold! :-)) a later day Tesla.....<BR><BR>Act=
ually you would get a much "bigger" aerial by putting two stakes in the gr=
ound. This gives a loop because the skin depth at these freqencies can be=
10s of metres probably more than the height of your inv "L". It is also=
easier to feed via a transformer like a loop. (from the book I referenced=
)<BR><BR>Alan G3NYK<BR><BR>--- On Mon, 22/2/10, M0FMT <<A href=3D"http:=
//uk.mc281.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dm0fmt@yahoo.co.uk" rel=3Dnofollo=
w target=3D_blank>m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk</A>> wrote:<BR><BR>> From: M0FMT=
<<A href=3D"http://uk.mc281.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dm0fmt@yah=
oo.co.uk" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk</A>><BR>>=
Subject: RE: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz<BR>> To: <A href=3D"http://uk.mc281.mail=
.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Drsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" rel=3Dnofollow ta=
rget=3D_blank>rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</A><BR>> Date: Monday, 22 Fe=
bruary, 2010, 22:43<BR>> <BR>> Yep Rik<BR>> <BR>> So how=
do I load it?<BR>> <BR>> I agree there is about 780 Watt=
s being disapated in<BR>> the coil so it would act like a one bar elect=
ric fire while<BR>> the wire held out before melting. <BR>> <B=
R>> I have other options of about 400 watts, 250 Watts and<BR>> abou=
t 100 Watts of audio to try out. <BR>> <BR>> I need a plan tha=
t does not contain unobtainum like<BR>> most of the RSGB designs in the=
LF Handbook.<BR>> <BR>> I want to use an air core transformer=
if at all<BR>>
possible....... there is a lot of pontificating on<BR>> this=
reflector about this subject but I am looking<BR>> for a pra=
ctical method of loading a wire antenna and need<BR>> help, ideas-wise.=
<BR>> <BR>> If I can load it with any of the power levels=
<BR>> above there are LF stations who may cooperate in<BR>>=
; doing an RX test like G7NKS about 6.5 km away possibly<BR>> G3xi=
z or M0jxm roughly 10km away. <BR>> <BR>> May be trying=
to load a piece of wire, which is a<BR>> miniscule fraction of a wave=
length, in the<BR>> conventional way is not the answer.<BR>>=
<BR>> So I am open to ideas (practical ones)......<BR>>=
anyone?? <BR>> <BR>> 73 es GL petefmt<BR>> <BR>> --- On=
Mon, 22/2/10, Rik Strobbe<BR>> <<A href=3D"http://uk.mc281.mail.yah=
oo.com/mc/compose?to=3DRik.Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be" rel=3Dnofollow targe=
t=3D_blank>Rik.Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be</A>> wrote:<BR>> <BR>> <BR=
>> From: Rik Strobbe <<A href=3D"http://uk.mc281.mail.yahoo.com/mc/c=
ompose?to=3DRik.Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>Ri=
k.Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be</A>><BR>> Subject: RE: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz<BR=
>> To: "<A href=3D"http://uk.mc281.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Drsgb_=
lf_group@blacksheep.org" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>rsgb_lf_group@blac=
ksheep.org</A>"<BR>> <<A href=3D"http://uk.mc281.mail.yahoo.com/mc/c=
ompose?to=3Drsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>r=
sgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</A>><BR>> Date: Monday, 22 February, 201=
0, 21:24<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Pete,<BR>>=
; <BR>> 2.5km Cu wire<BR>> of 0.2mm has a resistance of 1345=
Ohm.<BR>> So even if the<BR>> coil doen't get hot by the HV it cert=
ainly will by the<BR>> dissipated power.<BR>> <BR>> 73, Rik=
<BR>> ON7YD -
OR7T<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Van:<BR>> <A href=3D"htt=
p://uk.mc281.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Downer-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep=
.org" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</A=
><BR>> [<A href=3D"http://uk.mc281.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Downer=
-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>owner-rsgb_l=
f_group@blacksheep.org</A>] namens M0FMT<BR>> [<A href=3D"http://uk.mc2=
81.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dm0fmt@yahoo.co.uk" rel=3Dnofollow target=
=3D_blank>m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk</A>]<BR>> Verzonden: maandag 22 februari 20=
10 19:19<BR>> Aan: <A href=3D"http://uk.mc281.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose=
?to=3Drsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>rsgb_lf=
_group@blacksheep.org</A><BR>> Onderwerp: RE: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz<BR>>=
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>>=
<BR>> Hi Group<BR>> <BR>> Using software to calculate what=
I would need to load<BR>> my inv
"L" on 8.9 kc/s with my 8 Ohm<BR>> O/P 800 Watt audio amp=
I get :-<BR>> A coil/transformer of about 1 Henry which with my air<BR=
>> cored former is 1400 turns, <BR>> 2.5 km length, of 0.2mm diamete=
r wire.<BR>> A coupling loop of about 2 turns.<BR>> Creating an ante=
nna current of about 1 amp being<BR>> driven by about 60kVolts. Making&=
nbsp;a coil that will be<BR>> getting pretty hot!!!!! Probably red hot.=
<BR>> Any suggestions??<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> &nb=
sp;<BR>> <BR>> 73 es GL petefmt<BR>> <BR>> --- On Mon, 22/2/10=
, James Cowburn<BR>> <<A href=3D"http://uk.mc281.mail.yahoo.com/mc/c=
ompose?to=3Djames.cowburn@virgin.net" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>james=
.cowburn@virgin.net</A>> wrote:<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> From: James=
Cowburn <<A href=3D"http://uk.mc281.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Djam=
es.cowburn@virgin.net" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>james.cowburn@virgin=
.net</A>><BR>>
Subject: RE: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz<BR>> To: <A href=3D"http://uk.mc281.mail=
.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Drsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" rel=3Dnofollow ta=
rget=3D_blank>rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</A><BR>> Date: Monday, 22 Fe=
bruary, 2010, 16:31<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> All we need is a wire strung=
between<BR>> K2 and Everest summits and fed from<BR>> base camp bel=
ow?<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> -----Original Message-----<BR>>=
From: <A href=3D"http://uk.mc281.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Downer-rsg=
b_lf_group@blacksheep.org" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>owner-rsgb_lf_gr=
oup@blacksheep.org</A><BR>> [mailto:<A href=3D"http://uk.mc281.mail.yah=
oo.com/mc/compose?to=3Downer-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" rel=3Dnofollow=
target=3D_blank>owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</A>]<BR>> On Behalf=
Of Warren Ziegler<BR>> Sent: 22 February 2010 16:23<BR>> To: <A hre=
f=3D"http://uk.mc281.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Drsgb_lf_group@blackshe=
ep.org" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</A><=
BR>> Subject: Re: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz<BR>> <BR>> No license is requi=
red in the US below 9kHz.<BR>> <BR>> I agree with Mal its very diffi=
cult to radiate a signal on<BR>> 137kHz, let<BR>> alone 9kHz!<BR>>=
; -- <BR>> 73 Warren K2ORS<BR>> =
<BR>> WD2XGJ<BR>> &n=
bsp; <BR>> WD2XSH/23<BR>> =
<BR>> WE2XEB/2<BR>> =
<BR>> WE2XGR/1<BR>>=
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 11:10 AM, ALAN MELIA=
<<A href=3D"http://uk.mc281.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dalan.melia@=
btinternet.com" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>alan.melia@btinternet.com</=
A>><BR>> wrote:<BR>> > Hi as far as the Uk is concerned it is=
not allowed.<BR>> You probably need
to<BR>> contact Andy G4JNT for details he did approach the<BR>> reg=
ulator at one time<BR>> maybe around 2001/2 when Geri was doing his tes=
ts the<BR>> answer as I remember<BR>> was:-<BR>> > Frequencies=
below 10kHz are not allocated by<BR>> International Treaty but we<BR>&=
gt; control all frequencies between DC and gamma rays, and no<BR>> we=
will not be<BR>> issuing any licences for that region.<BR>> ><BR=
>> > I believe that was the RadioCommunications Agency<BR>> thing=
s may be different<BR>> now<BR>> with Ofcomm. The best person=
to know whether an approach<BR>> would be<BR>> worthwhile would be=
John Gould G4WKL who nursed the 500k<BR>> stuff through.<BR>> ><=
BR>> > Alan G3NYK<BR>> ><BR>> > --- On Mon, 22/2/10, Ste=
fan_Sch=E4fer<BR>> <<A href=3D"http://uk.mc281.mail.yahoo.com/mc/com=
pose?to=3DStefan.Schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de" rel=3Dnofollow target=
=3D_blank>Stefan.Schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de</A>><BR>> wrote:<BR>=
> ><BR>> >> From: Stefan_Sch=E4fer <<A href=3D"http://uk=
.mc281.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DStefan.Schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.d=
e" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>Stefan.Schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de</A=
>><BR>> >> Subject: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz<BR>> >> To: <A=
href=3D"http://uk.mc281.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Drsgb_lf_group@blac=
ksheep.org" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</A=
><BR>> >> Date: Monday, 22 February, 2010,<BR>> 11:32<BR=
>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>>=
>><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >&=
gt; Ok Roger,<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>>=
>> And do you know if f<9kHz is free for other<BR>> countries=
in<BR>> >> europe as<BR>> >> well? What about the UK?<B=
R>> >><BR>>
>><BR>> >><BR>> >> If such a grounded dipole is=
best, than it is easy<BR>> to build<BR>> >> a big<BR>> >=
;> antenna without the problems we have on LF<BR>> (getting the<BR>&=
gt; >> wire high above<BR>> >> ground). So we also could tr=
y big/long antennas.<BR>> Waht do<BR>> >> you mean with<BR>>=
; >> amateur levels? Power range is clear, something<BR>> arround=
<BR>> >> 500W+-6dB. But<BR>> >> the antenna? Sure, if yo=
u think about building an<BR>> antenna<BR>> >> in the<BR>>=
>> garden, say 2x20m, is not very effective but what<BR>> about<=
BR>> >> 2x500m in a<BR>> >> forrest, perhaps with the lo=
ading coils (which<BR>> will be on a<BR>> >><BR>> fer=
rite<BR>> >> toroid i think) mounted 300m apart from the<BR>>=
center? That<BR>> >> could be<BR>> >> interesting and=
easy to
try. No tower, no earth<BR>> radials,<BR>> >> just 2 wires<BR=
>> >> hung up on some trees and measured the impedance<BR>> at=
the<BR>> >> feed point,<BR>> >> that would be a first=
step.<BR>> >><BR>> >> This antenna will still be bad bu=
t what we are<BR>> doing -on LF<BR>> >> it is the<BR>> >=
> same- is beeing fascinated to reach a good<BR>> distance and<BR>&g=
t; >> make some<BR>> >> contacts at very low frequencies,=
although it<BR>> would be much<BR>> >> easier on<BR>> >=
> 40/80m...<BR>> >><BR>> >> And so, if one would reac=
h 50km with such a short<BR>> dipole,<BR>> >> the<BR>> >=
> fascination would be enormous, isn't it? ;-)<BR>> >><BR>>=
>><BR>> >><BR>> >> Has anyone, except Horst, trie=
d such experiments<BR>> as well?<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>&=
gt;
>><BR>> >> With the ground wave,<BR>> one could=
reach the whole europe, i<BR>> >> expect. But<BR>> >>=
that are dreams...<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>=
> >> Stefan/DK7FC<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >&=
gt;<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR=
>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >> Am 22.02.2010 11:03, schr=
ieb Roger Lapthorn:<BR>> >><BR>> >> At this frequ=
ency, widely<BR>> spaced, grounded<BR>> >> electrode pair=
s are<BR>> >> probably the best "antenna". There<BR>> ar=
e<BR>> >> references to how these work in<BR>> >> the li=
terature (for example NATO AGAARD papers<BR>> from the<BR>> >>=
1960s,<BR>> >> available on the internet I believe) and on one=
of<BR>> the<BR>> >> German ham sites<BR>> >> (DK8KW)=
- see <A href=3D"http://www.qru.de/#vlf " rel=3Dnofollow target=3D=
_blank>http://www.qru.de/#vlf </A>.<BR>> >><BR>> >>=
Don't expect great ranges: up to 10kms<BR>> is a fair<BR>>=
>> aim with modern<BR>> >> signal<BR>> processing=
technology and reasonable (amateur<BR>> >> levels) availabl=
e<BR>> >> power. Project Sanguine achieved worldwide<BR>> cove=
rage to<BR>> >> submarines at<BR>> >> 76Hz (yes Hertz!)=
but used enormous power and<BR>> antennas<BR>> >> stretching=
for<BR>> >> 100s of kms.<BR>> >><BR>> >>  =
; 73s<BR>> >> Roger G3XBM<BR>> >><BR>> >>=
;<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >> &nbs=
p; 2010/2/22 Stefan Sch=E4fer<BR>> >> <<A href=3D"http://uk.mc=
281.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dschaefer@hst.tu-darmstadt.de" rel=3Dnof=
ollow target=3D_blank>schaefer@hst.tu-darmstadt.de</A>><BR>> >&=
gt;<BR>> >> Hello Horst,<BR>> >><BR>> >>=
<BR>> >><BR>> >> That sounds really nice. If it would be=
easy to<BR>> find some<BR>> >> motivated OMs<BR>> >>=
in the near field (31km) ;-), that would be an<BR>> interesting<BR>>=
; >> field to<BR>> >> test.<BR>> >><BR>> >&g=
t;<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> Yesterday i have though=
t about possible antenna<BR>> >> configurations for that<BR>>=
>> range and got the idea that one could use a<BR>> forrest as=
an<BR>> >> antenna<BR>> >> tower. There, you could hang=
up 100s meters of<BR>> wire, in<BR>> >> series and in<BR>>=
>> parallel. You do not need to have that area beside<BR>> your<=
BR>> >> house. Nobody<BR>> >> will see the wire and nobo=
dy will care about
it.<BR>> >><BR>> >> Since summer 2007 i have a horizont=
al loop antenna<BR>> mounted<BR>> >> in some<BR>> >>=
trees on my hill with excellent results on all HF<BR>> bands and<BR>&g=
t; >> also 160m.<BR>> >> The loop has 130m and is mounted=
up to 12m above<BR>> ground.<BR>> >> Perfect<BR>> >>=
matching from 160m to 10m with my symmetric tuner.<BR>> I even<BR>>=
>> tried<BR>> >> matching on 2200m without a problem but=
with bad<BR>> ODX<BR>> >> results, of<BR>> >> course=
. But if one would try 2x 10*100m on VLF,<BR>> the ODX<BR>> >>=
<BR>> would be<BR>> >> interesting...<BR>> >><B=
R>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >> JO30OT is abt 160km from=
JN49IS and thus a little<BR>> far i<BR>> >> think ;-)<BR>>=
>><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >> What is your=
RX antenna
and have you already<BR>> catched some<BR>> >> commercial<BR>=
> >> VLF stations in that range? Are there some?<BR>> >>=
<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >> 73, Stefan<BR>> >=
;><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >> PS: One can be su=
re that there will never be SSB<BR>> operation<BR>> >> ;-)<BR>=
> >><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >> _________=
_______________________<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >>=
<BR>> >> Von: <A href=3D"http://uk.mc281.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compos=
e?to=3Downer-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>=
owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</A><BR>> >> im Auftrag von Hor=
st St=F6cker<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >> Gesendet:=
Mo 22.02.2010 09:29<BR>> >><BR>> >> <BR>&g=
t; An: <A href=3D"http://uk.mc281.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dr=
sgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>rsgb_lf_group@=
blacksheep.org</A><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >> Betr=
eff: RE: LF: AW: Beaconing on 8.79 kHz in<BR>> QRSS<BR>> >><BR=
>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>>=
>><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >> Hallo Stefan,=
<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >> there=
was a notice in Funkamateur 12/05, S. 1287,<BR>> that in<BR>> >&=
gt; DL the range<BR>> >> <9kHz is free.<BR>> >><BR>&g=
t; >><BR>> >><BR>> >> I could not believe that so=
I asked the BNetzA and<BR>> after a<BR>> >> while I got<BR>&g=
t; >> a letter which confirmed that.<BR>> >><BR>> >&g=
t;<BR>> >><BR>> >> So there nothing you've got to do for=
getting<BR>> a<BR>>
>> licence. You do not<BR>> >> need one.<BR>> >><=
BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >> There is no limitation=
of technical parameters<BR>> like<BR>> >> bandwith or<BR>>=
power.<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>>=
>> Hard to believe in german, but obviously true.<BR>> >><=
BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >> My QTH is Siegburg JO30=
OT<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >> Hor=
st<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> _____________________________=
______________________________<BR>> >><BR>> >> NEU: Mit=
WEB.DE DSL =FCber 1000,- =BF sparen!<BR>> >><BR>> >> &n=
bsp; <A href=3D"http://produkte.web.de/go/02/" rel=3Dnofollow targe=
t=3D_blank>http://produkte.web.de/go/02/</A><BR>> >><BR>> >=
><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >><B=
R>>
>><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >&=
gt;<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR=
>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >> --<BR>> >><BR>&g=
t; >><BR>> >><BR>> >> <A href=3D"http://g3x=
bm-qrp.blogspot.com/" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>http://g3xbm-qrp.blog=
spot.com/</A><BR>> >><BR>> >> <A href=3D"http://w=
ww.g3xbm.co.uk/" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>http://www.g3xbm.co.uk</A>=
<BR>> >><BR>> >> <A href=3D"http://www.youtube.co=
m/user/G3XBM" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>http://www.youtube.com/user/G=
3XBM</A><BR>> >><BR>> >> G3XBM GQRP 1678 &n=
bsp; <BR>> ISWL<BR>> >> G11088<BR>> >><BR=
>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>>=
>><BR>> >> --<BR>> >> ---------------------------=
-<BR>> >>
Dipl.-Ing. Stefan Sch=E4fer<BR>> >> Institut f=FCr Umweltphysik=
der Universit=E4t<BR>> >> Heidelberg<BR>> >> Im Neuenhe=
imer Feld 229<BR>> >> D-69120 Heidelberg, Germany<BR>> >>=
;<BR>> >> <A href=3D"http://uk.mc281.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
=3Dschaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>schaefer=
@iup.uni-heidelberg.de</A><BR>> >> Phone: (+49) (0)6221 546387<BR=
>> >> Fax: (+49) (0)6221 546405<BR>> >><BR>> >>=
<BR>> www.iup.uni-heidelberg.de<BR>> >><BR>> >>=
<BR>> >><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>=
> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>><BR><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOT=
E></td></tr></table><br>
=20
--0-1212119198-1266881795=:39843--