Return-Path: Received: from mtain-di02.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-di02.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.64.6]) by air-di07.mail.aol.com (v127_r1.1) with ESMTP id MAILINDI074-eb654b83154111; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 18:37:37 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-di02.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 7F2B9380000AE; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 18:37:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1NjhpT-0006qH-TL for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 23:36:43 +0000 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1NjhpS-0006q6-NT for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 23:36:42 +0000 Received: from web28105.mail.ukl.yahoo.com ([217.146.182.125]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NjhpS-0006mg-Aj for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 23:36:42 +0000 Received: (qmail 40745 invoked by uid 60001); 22 Feb 2010 23:36:36 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.co.uk; s=s1024; t=1266881796; bh=yecFHSFFwl+X1CQC3MtCMokPixR3d/VNFgM2rZ4et4Y=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=ElmQmmnLq1Ne4WRIxvmeDRzrG1PP9IxV5o2HsNZ08zlh+kdyTLNPg+60E7pv+y6GPFeOwwi96StSKcAgfA3pjBC6165J0B08DMiHldgiwHYysjLDi49tdIVK+fOgk8o93xVYUzngRNurpB2rKDJYqPWnQLVrOAx77Qf9MPioDJI= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=D4zbNPkhsYQgkjS6k+uV+3DwpEyaoudj5M+y7lyo3/nKAzWOWBwMNLnW8Nukq8NKdB/b9TLCUs9sr4CM/wFP3FwpxGE6g2x4ZKVofxmZHmTpY/la3rF6N/13hnRpSC9xUYZZlKdwZNGMi5pUJS8YIyCgojFpUs6zXmCUakSfMq4=; Message-ID: <260427.39843.qm@web28105.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: pWfW9sUVM1ngZuc53pFlArVsqKNMHNT19SKfMGnzVullC.aIUejB.i76Hh6JeP7mcUnxHDMEK2Bf6F9dX3YmFHZfPAm9wrFu3ecll.WnAR8VNoJXcIbjLzdoudnc1A9IyahAaENo1MSL73xY3rLUZdcE9KDvBV0aGk8GzW2P5E5jQCvSo1BRCU3j6.uG3UVujcAqWF_Z0JBK5nY5ciwxRQe5Of6TGqsMhncEJx59GXoyQj05oqzKVq1nN5mTOySquZjWVHiYLBE71StEtgbXaRFaNBtQIO2RaXofZSpLLTWxc7._DbCBKQO_0lS3 Received: from [86.130.73.141] by web28105.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:36:35 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/9.2.12 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:36:35 -0800 (PST) From: M0FMT To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 DomainKey-Status: good (testing) Subject: RE: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1212119198-1266881795=:39843" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-m249.1 ; domain : yahoo.co.uk DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d40064b83153f1279 X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 --0-1212119198-1266881795=:39843 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alan, Rik and Stefan =A0 Thank you for the practical solutions...... I am reading up on the earth= conduction work done by John Taylor it may be possible for me to adapt so= me of his methods for this location. I like the idea of the ground electrodes I will lay out some cable and ini= tially see how much current I can make flow into the ground=A0using the 10= 0Watt amp. Then see how I get on from there. If I get a result of sorts I= will report back but silence will mean failure....:-)) 73 es GL petefmt --- On Mon, 22/2/10, ALAN MELIA wrote: From: ALAN MELIA Subject: RE: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Monday, 22 February, 2010, 23:09 Peter, Why load it and try to feed it as a current fed extremely short aer= ial. Would it be easier to calculate a parallel tuned circuit and feed it= off the top....voltage feed. You could then use a much smaller inductance= and a few farads and have a very narrow bandwidth. The efficiency would= still be minute but the firework display after dark would be a wonder to= behold! :-))=A0 a later day Tesla..... Actually you would get a much "bigger" aerial by putting two stakes in the= ground. This gives a loop because the skin depth at these freqencies can= be 10s of metres probably more than the height of your inv "L". It is als= o easier to feed via a transformer like a loop. (from the book I reference= d) Alan G3NYK --- On Mon, 22/2/10, M0FMT wrote: > From: M0FMT > Subject: RE: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Date: Monday, 22 February, 2010, 22:43 >=20 > Yep Rik > =A0 > So how do=A0I load it? > =A0 > I agree there is about 780 Watts being disapated in > the coil so it would act like a one bar electric fire while > the wire held out before melting.=20 > =A0 > I have other options of about 400 watts, 250 Watts and > about 100 Watts of audio to try out.=20 > =A0 > I need a plan that does not contain unobtainum like > most of the RSGB designs in the LF Handbook. > =A0 > I want to use an air core transformer if at all > possible....... there=A0is a=A0lot of pontificating on > this reflector=A0about this subject but=A0I am looking > for a practical method of loading a wire antenna and need > help, ideas-wise.=A0 >=20 > If I can load it with any=A0of the power levels > above=A0there are=A0LF stations who may cooperate in > doing an RX test like=A0G7NKS about 6.5 km away possibly > G3xiz or M0jxm=A0roughly 10km away.=20 > =A0 > May be trying to load a piece of wire, which is a > miniscule fraction of a wave length,=A0in the > conventional way is not the answer. > =A0 > So=A0I am open to ideas (practical ones)...... > anyone??=A0 >=20 > 73 es GL petefmt >=20 > --- On Mon, 22/2/10, Rik Strobbe > wrote: >=20 >=20 > From: Rik Strobbe > Subject: RE: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz > To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" > > Date: Monday, 22 February, 2010, 21:24 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Pete, > =A0 > 2.5km Cu wire > of 0.2mm has a resistance of 1345 Ohm. > So even if the > coil doen't get hot by the HV it certainly will by the > dissipated power. > =A0 > 73, Rik=A0 > ON7YD - OR7T > =A0 >=20 >=20 > Van: > owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens M0FMT > [m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk] > Verzonden: maandag 22 februari 2010 19:19 > Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Onderwerp: RE: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Hi Group > =A0 > Using software to calculate what I would need to load > my inv "L"=A0 on 8.9 kc/s with my 8 Ohm > O/P=A0800 Watt audio amp I get :- > A coil/transformer of about 1 Henry which with my air > cored former is 1400 turns,=20 > 2.5 km length, of 0.2mm diameter wire. > A coupling loop of about 2 turns. > Creating an antenna current of about 1 amp being > driven by about 60kVolts. Making=A0a coil that will be > getting pretty hot!!!!! Probably red hot. > Any suggestions?? > =A0 > =A0 > =A0=A0 >=20 > 73 es GL petefmt >=20 > --- On Mon, 22/2/10, James Cowburn > wrote: >=20 >=20 > From: James Cowburn > Subject: RE: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Date: Monday, 22 February, 2010, 16:31 >=20 >=20 > All we need is a wire strung between > K2 and Everest summits and fed from > base camp below? >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] > On Behalf Of Warren Ziegler > Sent: 22 February 2010 16:23 > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Subject: Re: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz >=20 > No license is required in the US below 9kHz. >=20 > I agree with Mal its very difficult to radiate a signal on > 137kHz, let > alone 9kHz! > --=20 > 73 Warren K2ORS > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 >=A0 WD2XGJ > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 > WD2XSH/23 > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 > WE2XEB/2 > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 > WE2XGR/1 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 11:10 AM, ALAN MELIA > wrote: > > Hi as far as the Uk is concerned it is not allowed. > You probably need to > contact Andy G4JNT for details he did approach the > regulator at one time > maybe around 2001/2 when Geri was doing his tests the > answer as I remember > was:- > > Frequencies below 10kHz are not allocated by > International Treaty but we > control all frequencies between DC and gamma rays, and no > we will not be > issuing any licences for that region. > > > > I believe that was the RadioCommunications Agency > things may be different > now >=A0 with Ofcomm. The best person to know whether an approach > would be > worthwhile would be John Gould G4WKL who nursed the 500k > stuff through. > > > > Alan G3NYK > > > > --- On Mon, 22/2/10, Stefan_Sch=E4fer > > wrote: > > > >> From: Stefan_Sch=E4fer > >> Subject: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz > >> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > >> Date: Monday, 22 February, 2010, >=A0 11:32 > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Ok Roger, > >> > >> > >> > >> And do you know if f<9kHz is free for other > countries in > >> europe as > >> well? What about the UK? > >> > >> > >> > >> If such a grounded dipole is best, than it is easy > to build > >> a big > >> antenna without the problems we have on LF > (getting the > >> wire high above > >> ground). So we also could try big/long antennas. > Waht do > >> you mean with > >> amateur levels? Power range is clear, something > arround > >> 500W+-6dB. But > >> the antenna? Sure, if you think about building an > antenna > >> in the > >> garden, say 2x20m, is not very effective but what > about > >> 2x500m in a > >> forrest, perhaps with the loading coils (which > will be on a > >> >=A0 ferrite > >> toroid i think) mounted 300m apart from the > center? That > >> could be > >> interesting and easy to try. No tower, no earth > radials, > >> just 2 wires > >> hung up on some trees and measured the impedance > at the > >> feed point, > >> that would be a first step. > >> > >> This antenna will still be bad but what we are > doing -on LF > >> it is the > >> same- is beeing fascinated to reach a good > distance and > >> make some > >> contacts at very low frequencies, although it > would be much > >> easier on > >> 40/80m... > >> > >> And so, if one would reach 50km with such a short > dipole, > >> the > >> fascination would be enormous, isn't it? ;-) > >> > >> > >> > >> Has anyone, except Horst, tried such experiments > as well? > >> > >> > >> > >> With the ground wave, >=A0 one could reach the whole europe, i > >> expect. But > >> that are dreams... > >> > >> > >> > >> Stefan/DK7FC > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Am 22.02.2010 11:03, schrieb Roger Lapthorn: > >> > >> =A0 At this frequency, widely > spaced,=A0grounded > >> electrode pairs are > >> probably the best "antenna".=A0 There > are > >> references to how these work in > >> the literature (for example NATO AGAARD papers > from the > >> 1960s, > >> available on the internet I believe) and on one of > the > >> German ham sites > >> (DK8KW) - see http://www.qru.de/#vlf=A0. > >> > >> =A0 Don't expect great ranges: up to 10kms > is a fair > >> aim with modern > >> signal >=A0 processing=A0technology and reasonable (amateur > >> levels) available > >> power. Project Sanguine achieved worldwide > coverage to > >> submarines at > >> 76Hz (yes Hertz!) but used enormous power and > antennas > >> stretching for > >> 100s of kms. > >> > >> =A0 73s > >> =A0 Roger G3XBM > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> =A0 2010/2/22 Stefan Sch=E4fer > >> > >> > >> =A0 Hello Horst, > >> > >> > >> > >> That sounds really nice. If it would be easy to > find some > >> motivated OMs > >> in the near field (31km) ;-), that would be an > interesting > >> field to > >> test. > >> > >> > >> > >> >=A0 Yesterday i have thought about possible antenna > >> configurations for that > >> range and got the idea that one could use a > forrest as an > >> antenna > >> tower. There, you could hang up 100s meters of > wire, in > >> series and in > >> parallel. You do not need to have that area beside > your > >> house. Nobody > >> will see the wire and nobody will care about it. > >> > >> Since summer 2007 i have a horizontal loop antenna > mounted > >> in some > >> trees on my hill with excellent results on all HF > bands and > >> also 160m. > >> The loop has 130m and is mounted up to 12m above > ground. > >> Perfect > >> matching from 160m to 10m with my symmetric tuner. > I even > >> tried > >> matching on 2200m without a problem but with bad > ODX > >> results, of > >> course. But if one would try 2x 10*100m on VLF, > the ODX > >> >=A0 would be > >> interesting... > >> > >> > >> > >> JO30OT is abt 160km from JN49IS and thus a little > far i > >> think ;-) > >> > >> > >> > >> What is your RX antenna and have you already > catched some > >> commercial > >> VLF stations in that range? Are there some? > >> > >> > >> > >> 73, Stefan > >> > >> > >> > >> PS: One can be sure that there will never be SSB > operation > >> ;-) > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> > >> > >> > >> Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > >> im Auftrag von Horst St=F6cker > >> > >> > >> Gesendet: Mo 22.02.2010 09:29 > >> > >> =A0 =A0 >=A0 An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > >> > >> > >> Betreff: RE: LF: AW: Beaconing on 8.79 kHz in > QRSS > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Hallo Stefan, > >> > >> > >> > >> there was a notice in Funkamateur 12/05, S. 1287, > that in > >> DL the range > >> <9kHz is free. > >> > >> > >> > >> I could not believe that so I asked the BNetzA and > after a > >> while I got > >> a letter which confirmed that. > >> > >> > >> > >> So there nothing you've got to do for getting > a > >> licence. You do not > >> need one. > >> > >> > >> > >> There is no limitation of technical parameters > like > >> bandwith or >=A0 power. > >> > >> > >> > >> Hard to believe in german, but obviously true. > >> > >> > >> > >> My QTH is Siegburg JO30OT > >> > >> > >> > >> Horst > >> > >> > ___________________________________________________________ > >> > >> NEU: Mit WEB.DE DSL =FCber 1000,- =BF sparen! > >> > >> =A0 =A0 http://produkte.web.de/go/02/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> > >> > >> =A0 http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ > >> > >> =A0 http://www.g3xbm.co.uk > >> > >> =A0 http://www.youtube.com/user/G3XBM > >> > >> G3XBM =A0 =A0GQRP 1678 =A0 =A0 > =A0ISWL > >> G11088 > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> ---------------------------- > >> Dipl.-Ing. Stefan Sch=E4fer > >> Institut f=FCr Umweltphysik der Universit=E4t > >> Heidelberg > >> Im Neuenheimer Feld 229 > >> D-69120 Heidelberg, Germany > >> > >> schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de > >> Phone: (+49) (0)6221 546387 > >> Fax: (+49) (0)6221 546405 > >> > >> >=A0 www.iup.uni-heidelberg.de > >> > >> > >> > > > > >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > =20 --0-1212119198-1266881795=:39843 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Alan, Rik and Stefan
 
Thank you for the practical solutions...... I am reading up on the ea= rth conduction work done by John Taylor it may be possible for me to adapt= some of his methods for this location.
I like the idea of the ground electrodes I will lay out some cable an= d initially see how much current I can make flow into the ground usin= g the 100Watt amp. Then see how I get on from there. If I get a result of= sorts I will report back but silence will mean failure....:-))

73= es GL petefmt

--- On Mon, 22/2/10, ALAN MELIA <alan.melia= @btinternet.com> wrote:

From: ALAN MELIA <alan.melia@btinternet.com= >
Subject: RE: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org<= BR>Date: Monday, 22 February, 2010, 23:09

Peter, Why load it and try to feed it as a current= fed extremely short aerial. Would it be easier to calculate a parallel tu= ned circuit and feed it off the top....voltage feed. You could then use a= much smaller inductance and a few farads and have a very narrow bandwidth= . The efficiency would still be minute but the firework display after dark= would be a wonder to behold! :-))  a later day Tesla.....

Act= ually you would get a much "bigger" aerial by putting two stakes in the gr= ound. This gives a loop because the skin depth at these freqencies can be= 10s of metres probably more than the height of your inv "L". It is also= easier to feed via a transformer like a loop. (from the book I referenced= )

Alan G3NYK

--- On Mon, 22/2/10, M0FMT <m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> From: M0FMT= <m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk>
>= Subject: RE: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz
> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
> Date: Monday, 22 Fe= bruary, 2010, 22:43
>
> Yep Rik
>  
> So how= do I load it?
>  
> I agree there is about 780 Watt= s being disapated in
> the coil so it would act like a one bar elect= ric fire while
> the wire held out before melting.
>  > I have other options of about 400 watts, 250 Watts and
> abou= t 100 Watts of audio to try out.
>  
> I need a plan tha= t does not contain unobtainum like
> most of the RSGB designs in the= LF Handbook.
>  
> I want to use an air core transformer= if at all
> possible....... there is a lot of pontificating on
> this= reflector about this subject but I am looking
> for a pra= ctical method of loading a wire antenna and need
> help, ideas-wise.=  
>
> If I can load it with any of the power levels=
> above there are LF stations who may cooperate in
>= ; doing an RX test like G7NKS about 6.5 km away possibly
> G3xi= z or M0jxm roughly 10km away.
>  
> May be trying= to load a piece of wire, which is a
> miniscule fraction of a wave= length, in the
> conventional way is not the answer.
>=  
> So I am open to ideas (practical ones)......
>= anyone?? 
>
> 73 es GL petefmt
>
> --- On= Mon, 22/2/10, Rik Strobbe
> <Rik.Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be> wrote:
>
> > From: Rik Strobbe <Ri= k.Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be>
> Subject: RE: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz> To: "rsgb_lf_group@blac= ksheep.org"
> <r= sgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
> Date: Monday, 22 February, 201= 0, 21:24
>
>
>
>
>
> Pete,
>= ;  
> 2.5km Cu wire
> of 0.2mm has a resistance of 1345= Ohm.
> So even if the
> coil doen't get hot by the HV it cert= ainly will by the
> dissipated power.
>  
> 73, Rik=  
> ON7YD - OR7T
>  
>
>
> Van:
> owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
> [owner-rsgb_l= f_group@blacksheep.org] namens M0FMT
> [m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk]
> Verzonden: maandag 22 februari 20= 10 19:19
> Aan: rsgb_lf= _group@blacksheep.org
> Onderwerp: RE: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz
>=
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>=
> Hi Group
>  
> Using software to calculate what= I would need to load
> my inv "L"  on 8.9 kc/s with my 8 Ohm
> O/P 800 Watt audio amp= I get :-
> A coil/transformer of about 1 Henry which with my air> cored former is 1400 turns,
> 2.5 km length, of 0.2mm diamete= r wire.
> A coupling loop of about 2 turns.
> Creating an ante= nna current of about 1 amp being
> driven by about 60kVolts. Making&= nbsp;a coil that will be
> getting pretty hot!!!!! Probably red hot.=
> Any suggestions??
>  
>  
>  &nb= sp;
>
> 73 es GL petefmt
>
> --- On Mon, 22/2/10= , James Cowburn
> <james= .cowburn@virgin.net> wrote:
>
>
> From: James= Cowburn <james.cowburn@virgin= .net>
> Subject: RE: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz
> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
> Date: Monday, 22 Fe= bruary, 2010, 16:31
>
>
> All we need is a wire strung= between
> K2 and Everest summits and fed from
> base camp bel= ow?
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>= From: owner-rsgb_lf_gr= oup@blacksheep.org
> [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]
> On Behalf= Of Warren Ziegler
> Sent: 22 February 2010 16:23
> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org<= BR>> Subject: Re: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz
>
> No license is requi= red in the US below 9kHz.
>
> I agree with Mal its very diffi= cult to radiate a signal on
> 137kHz, let
> alone 9kHz!
>= ; --
> 73 Warren K2ORS
>          =      
>  WD2XGJ
>       &n= bsp;        
> WD2XSH/23
>    =            
> WE2XEB/2
>  =              
> WE2XGR/1
>=
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 11:10 AM, ALAN MELIA= <alan.melia@btinternet.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi as far as the Uk is concerned it is= not allowed.
> You probably need to
> contact Andy G4JNT for details he did approach the
> reg= ulator at one time
> maybe around 2001/2 when Geri was doing his tes= ts the
> answer as I remember
> was:-
> > Frequencies= below 10kHz are not allocated by
> International Treaty but we
&= gt; control all frequencies between DC and gamma rays, and no
> we= will not be
> issuing any licences for that region.
> >> > I believe that was the RadioCommunications Agency
> thing= s may be different
> now
>  with Ofcomm. The best person= to know whether an approach
> would be
> worthwhile would be= John Gould G4WKL who nursed the 500k
> stuff through.
> ><= BR>> > Alan G3NYK
> >
> > --- On Mon, 22/2/10, Ste= fan_Sch=E4fer
> <Stefan.Schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de>
> wrote:
= > >
> >> From: Stefan_Sch=E4fer <Stefan.Schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de>
> >> Subject: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz
> >> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
> >> Date: Monday, 22 February, 2010,
>  11:32> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>= >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >&= gt; Ok Roger,
> >>
> >>
> >>
>= >> And do you know if f<9kHz is free for other
> countries= in
> >> europe as
> >> well? What about the UK?> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> If such a grounded dipole is= best, than it is easy
> to build
> >> a big
> >= ;> antenna without the problems we have on LF
> (getting the
&= gt; >> wire high above
> >> ground). So we also could tr= y big/long antennas.
> Waht do
> >> you mean with
>= ; >> amateur levels? Power range is clear, something
> arround=
> >> 500W+-6dB. But
> >> the antenna? Sure, if yo= u think about building an
> antenna
> >> in the
>= >> garden, say 2x20m, is not very effective but what
> about<= BR>> >> 2x500m in a
> >> forrest, perhaps with the lo= ading coils (which
> will be on a
> >>
>  fer= rite
> >> toroid i think) mounted 300m apart from the
>= center? That
> >> could be
> >> interesting and= easy to try. No tower, no earth
> radials,
> >> just 2 wires> >> hung up on some trees and measured the impedance
> at= the
> >> feed point,
> >> that would be a first= step.
> >>
> >> This antenna will still be bad bu= t what we are
> doing -on LF
> >> it is the
> >= > same- is beeing fascinated to reach a good
> distance and
&g= t; >> make some
> >> contacts at very low frequencies,= although it
> would be much
> >> easier on
> >= > 40/80m...
> >>
> >> And so, if one would reac= h 50km with such a short
> dipole,
> >> the
> >= > fascination would be enormous, isn't it? ;-)
> >>
>= >>
> >>
> >> Has anyone, except Horst, trie= d such experiments
> as well?
> >>
> >>
&= gt; >>
> >> With the ground wave,
>  one could= reach the whole europe, i
> >> expect. But
> >>= that are dreams...
> >>
> >>
> >>
= > >> Stefan/DK7FC
> >>
> >>
> >&= gt;
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> >>
> >>
> >> Am 22.02.2010 11:03, schr= ieb Roger Lapthorn:
> >>
> >>   At this frequ= ency, widely
> spaced, grounded
> >> electrode pair= s are
> >> probably the best "antenna".  There
> ar= e
> >> references to how these work in
> >> the li= terature (for example NATO AGAARD papers
> from the
> >>= 1960s,
> >> available on the internet I believe) and on one= of
> the
> >> German ham sites
> >> (DK8KW)= - see http://www.qru.de/#vlf .
> >>
> >>=   Don't expect great ranges: up to 10kms
> is a fair
>= >> aim with modern
> >> signal
>  processing=  technology and reasonable (amateur
> >> levels) availabl= e
> >> power. Project Sanguine achieved worldwide
> cove= rage to
> >> submarines at
> >> 76Hz (yes Hertz!)= but used enormous power and
> antennas
> >> stretching= for
> >> 100s of kms.
> >>
> >>  = ; 73s
> >>   Roger G3XBM
> >>
> >>= ;
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> &nbs= p; 2010/2/22 Stefan Sch=E4fer
> >> <schaefer@hst.tu-darmstadt.de>
> >&= gt;
> >>   Hello Horst,
> >>
> >>=
> >>
> >> That sounds really nice. If it would be= easy to
> find some
> >> motivated OMs
> >>= in the near field (31km) ;-), that would be an
> interesting
>= ; >> field to
> >> test.
> >>
> >&g= t;
> >>
> >>
>  Yesterday i have though= t about possible antenna
> >> configurations for that
>= >> range and got the idea that one could use a
> forrest as= an
> >> antenna
> >> tower. There, you could hang= up 100s meters of
> wire, in
> >> series and in
>= >> parallel. You do not need to have that area beside
> your<= BR>> >> house. Nobody
> >> will see the wire and nobo= dy will care about it.
> >>
> >> Since summer 2007 i have a horizont= al loop antenna
> mounted
> >> in some
> >>= trees on my hill with excellent results on all HF
> bands and
&g= t; >> also 160m.
> >> The loop has 130m and is mounted= up to 12m above
> ground.
> >> Perfect
> >>= matching from 160m to 10m with my symmetric tuner.
> I even
>= >> tried
> >> matching on 2200m without a problem but= with bad
> ODX
> >> results, of
> >> course= . But if one would try 2x 10*100m on VLF,
> the ODX
> >>=
>  would be
> >> interesting...
> >>> >>
> >>
> >> JO30OT is abt 160km from= JN49IS and thus a little
> far i
> >> think ;-)
>= >>
> >>
> >>
> >> What is your= RX antenna and have you already
> catched some
> >> commercial
= > >> VLF stations in that range? Are there some?
> >>=
> >>
> >>
> >> 73, Stefan
> >= ;>
> >>
> >>
> >> PS: One can be su= re that there will never be SSB
> operation
> >> ;-)
= > >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _________= _______________________
> >>
> >>
> >>=
> >> Von: = owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
> >> im Auftrag von Hor= st St=F6cker
> >>
> >>
> >> Gesendet:= Mo 22.02.2010 09:29
> >>
> >>    
&g= t;  An: rsgb_lf_group@= blacksheep.org
> >>
> >>
> >> Betr= eff: RE: LF: AW: Beaconing on 8.79 kHz in
> QRSS
> >>> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>= >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hallo Stefan,=
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> there= was a notice in Funkamateur 12/05, S. 1287,
> that in
> >&= gt; DL the range
> >> <9kHz is free.
> >>
&g= t; >>
> >>
> >> I could not believe that so= I asked the BNetzA and
> after a
> >> while I got
&g= t; >> a letter which confirmed that.
> >>
> >&g= t;
> >>
> >> So there nothing you've got to do for= getting
> a
> >> licence. You do not
> >> need one.
> >><= BR>> >>
> >>
> >> There is no limitation= of technical parameters
> like
> >> bandwith or
>=   power.
> >>
> >>
> >>
>= >> Hard to believe in german, but obviously true.
> >><= BR>> >>
> >>
> >> My QTH is Siegburg JO30= OT
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hor= st
> >>
> >>
> _____________________________= ______________________________
> >>
> >> NEU: Mit= WEB.DE DSL =FCber 1000,- =BF sparen!
> >>
> >> &n= bsp;   http://produkte.web.de/go/02/
> >>
> >= >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >&= gt;
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
&g= t; >>
> >>
> >>   http://g3xbm-qrp.blog= spot.com/
> >>
> >>   http://www.g3xbm.co.uk=
> >>
> >>   http://www.youtube.com/user/G= 3XBM
> >>
> >> G3XBM    GQRP 1678 &n= bsp;  
>  ISWL
> >> G11088
> >>> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>= >>
> >> --
> >> ---------------------------= -
> >> Dipl.-Ing. Stefan Sch=E4fer
> >> Institut f=FCr Umweltphysik= der Universit=E4t
> >> Heidelberg
> >> Im Neuenhe= imer Feld 229
> >> D-69120 Heidelberg, Germany
> >>= ;
> >> schaefer= @iup.uni-heidelberg.de
> >> Phone: (+49) (0)6221 546387> >> Fax: (+49) (0)6221 546405
> >>
> >>=
>  www.iup.uni-heidelberg.de
> >>
> >>=
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
>
= >
>
>
>
>
>


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