Return-Path: Received: from mtain-me07.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-me07.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.96.143]) by air-di02.mail.aol.com (v127_r1.1) with ESMTP id MAILINDI021-eaba4b864bcf3ae; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 05:07:11 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-me07.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 2392338000085; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 05:07:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Nkabi-0001X4-DV for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 10:06:10 +0000 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Nkabi-0001Wv-05 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 10:06:10 +0000 Received: from smtp104.plus.mail.re1.yahoo.com ([69.147.102.67]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Nkabf-0002kg-6q for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 10:06:09 +0000 Received: (qmail 3723 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2010 10:06:00 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=btinternet.com; h=Received:X-Yahoo-SMTP:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:From:To:References:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Thread-Index:In-Reply-To; b=k4YapAgSepyb0UCB/BKrXrZ0nngzpcowH7VOkB+ZurvZnajaO0EG6ZRnOhMZVX8a4y2FJWnlNAnB+mhsg//ZHxSZCaT5c6Tf0eqzdr/iPDbmZ1kioe/Alu5nz9HLCJVivYtW+sM+uT0W+htEUyup6u6UjFtNrMPj6yKw2CVTpN4= ; Received: from host81-154-167-201.range81-154.btcentralplus.com (ken.h.wright@81.154.167.201 with login) by smtp104.plus.mail.re1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Feb 2010 02:06:00 -0800 PST X-Yahoo-SMTP: 9Y6mUHuswBAgnrOsukIiNdFDf95uy_Dz34nY1hlg2liKgYD952sjbg-- X-YMail-OSG: 7BniH7oVM1mSJqwmdgsag1sjwY8a8poH0_BfysP424kMtd2kErHmalc7YH.5ef.siAHtPknxpredBwr82hNTujcrPOOBgn4_cF2h9XuDuNdYxI539Cgjq7n6LQGrBlc3Qcx8IM.3CX0BGsVYSkUuktF6mZFUqM7oSQKd30WC_tKHKl5Vnvo1xkBJoGze.VbzvbIsz5G0fCkowYaonG4FsqKvLEOKQHAsTdsBDXUWUTr8tNzX7BOXW.yRt7J.quFA6YY6whDkQp.UxFviKdf8mGO3qjpntTss2sCsTwbBoRL_hFypuSHhmB2d1.HeRreSeLymm29DoK5btSMO7Pd3thcGT6Wow_uGVGIjhwoaviCkLR2MsIpQcRXMo9Ruu3liFx5iLwAOTVF_s_nzcGdOQQ8asXP_PMvMZ7vyN5mF.7rrp.vNtWF9ESL7yNxZ3WnXWQm2Sq3jViueSFUa6WYsWoR0HbjILXj5vY6AczL2hShKX1rPbnE.f60- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: "Ken" To: References: <27454582.2927283.1266931019627.JavaMail.fmail@mwmweb078> <201002231551000374.06933DBA@smtp2.numeo.fr> <201002231825390264.0720D365@smtp2.numeo.fr> <6D84087F68F641C7938B42CE6067AA35@JimPC> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 10:05:56 -0000 Message-ID: <2021F4D9DCF542B290883FF2F30AB357@lindavideo> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Thread-Index: Acq1lol+vY1xBNG5S+W1t7Mx4tx2LwAas+KQ In-Reply-To: <6D84087F68F641C7938B42CE6067AA35@JimPC> DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001 Subject: LF: RE: Re: VLF_8.79 kHz Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d608f4b864bcd7e87 X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 Hi Jim. I think I could knock up a quick 9kHz RX here in Luton over the weekend if that would help. I have been following this thread with interest, could you put up some diagrams etc of your parallel capacitor and other antenna configurations and formulae. 73. Ken M0KHW IO91TV -----Original Message----- From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of James Moritz Sent: 24 February 2010 21:14 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re: VLF_8.79 kHz Dear LF Group, A couple of years ago I did some measurements of Rloss of the 10m high, 40m long inv-L antenna at my home QTH, and also a near-identical antenna set up in the middle of a field away from trees and buildings. The attached graph shows Rloss plotted against frequency over the range 10kHz to 600kHz for both antennas. At all frequencies, the loss resistance of the open-field antenna is much lower than the home QTH antenna, which is surrounded by numerous small trees. The ground in both cases was 4 x 1m ground rods, close to the feed point of the antenna. The actual ground around both antennas was very similar - a waterlogged clay soil. At 10kHz, the open field antenna has Rloss of 50R, against 380R for the home QTH antenna. Both antennas show a decreasing Rloss with frequency - this suggests dielectric losses are dominant (the antenna voltage increases at lower frequencies for a given current) in both cases. The text books say, for electrically small antennas, that dielectric losses will dominate at low frequencies, while at high frequencies the skin effect will eventually cause resistance to start increasing - in the case of the open field antenna, a turn-over point might have been reached at a few hundred kHz. The 50R figure suggests that antenna efficiency might actually be higher at 9kHz than people are expecting - at least in an open field site. A suitable loading coil would be a problem. The antenna capacitance was around 350pF - in these experiments I used a ferrite-cored coil of around 0.7H with a Q of about 150, but this had a loss resistance of about 300R. If you tolerated loosing half the TX power in the loading coil, a similar inductance with a Q of around 1000 would be needed. Increasing the top-loading capacitance of the antenna would definitely be useful... Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU