Return-Path: Received: from rly-md05.mx.aol.com (rly-md05.mail.aol.com [172.20.29.143]) by air-md06.mail.aol.com (v121.5) with ESMTP id MAILINMD063-901488481d6363; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 08:32:29 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by rly-md05.mx.aol.com (v121.5) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINMD051-901488481d6363; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 08:32:25 -0400 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1KKuYQ-00051F-L9 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:31:50 +0100 Received: from [83.244.159.144] (helo=relay3.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1KKuYQ-000516-4u for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:31:50 +0100 Received: from cavuit01.kulnet.kuleuven.be ([134.58.240.43]) by relay3.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KKuYM-0002IK-Lv for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:31:50 +0100 Received: from smtps02.kuleuven.be (smtpshost02.kulnet.kuleuven.be [134.58.240.75]) by cavuit01.kulnet.kuleuven.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAC157B8E8C for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:31:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtps02.kuleuven.be (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtps02.kuleuven.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B68CF3863 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:31:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from webmail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (webmail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be [134.58.242.4]) by smtps02.kuleuven.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 319B4F3862 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:31:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: by webmail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (Postfix, from userid 65534) id AA2E0514E; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:41:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 150.84-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be (150.84-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be [80.200.84.150]) by webmail4.kuleuven.be (Horde MIME library) with HTTP; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:41:14 +0200 Message-ID: <20080721144114.u8c5gh5peug0owgs@webmail4.kuleuven.be> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:41:14 +0200 X-Kuleuven: This mail passed the K.U.Leuven mailcluster From: Rik Strobbe To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.1.2) X-Originating-IP: 80.200.84.150 X-KULeuven-Information: Katholieke Universiteit Leuven X-KULeuven-Scanned: Found to be clean X-KULeuven-Envelope-From: rik.strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,none Subject: Re: LF: Loop Conundrum Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: listenair ; SPF_helo : n X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: listenair ; SPF_822_from : n X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) Quoting Andy Talbot : > Was pondering this while out walking the other day, and couldn't come > to a satisfactory conclusion either way... > > A small magnetic loop mounted vertically has a defined radiation > resistance that is a function of its diameter, a loss that is function > of its conductor and hence a loss or efficiency that is the ratio of > the two. It is resonated with a good quality vacuum capacitor, and > fed/matched by any suitable metrhod. Lets also leave aside all the > myth and folklore about small loops, and also ignore the environment > for now. It also as a radiation pattern with nulls. > > Now, I take two identical such loops and mount then on the same centre > line but at right angles to eachother so there should be no coupling > between them, whatsoever. Now, I connect the two loops in series and > resonate the combination with a single capacitor of half the original > value. The resulting radiation pattern should have the nulls filled > in, and be a reasonable approximation to omnidirectional in azimuth. > > BUT... > What is the resulting change in efficiency? > > Argument 1: > Two identical loops =3D two times the loss R, but also two times the > radiation resistance (since they don't couple) so net efficiency > remains the same. > > Argument 2 : > Chu-Harrington relates efficiency / Q / bandwidth / volume enclosed. > Therefore, as the enclosed volume has increased, the effciency ought > to rise. > > Both arguments developed little side trendrils & thoughts as I walked > and pondered, and both appear valid in their own way. So > the floor is open for discussion :- > > And where does the net radiation pattern fit into the equation? Does > it, at all ? > -- > Andy G4JNT > www.scrbg.org/g4jnt > Another 2 cent (or 2 penny): I just simulated the antenna as described by Andy with Mmana_gal: - The radiation pattern is (almost) omnidirectional. - The radiation resistance doubles compared to a single loop. But as =20 you use the double amount of wire (=3D double losses) efficiency will be =20 about the same I guess. 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T and compred it to a single loop Disclaimer: http://www.kuleuven.be/cwis/email_disclaimer.htm