Return-Path: Received: from mtain-dd09.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-dd09.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.64.149]) by air-di04.mail.aol.com (v127_r1.1) with ESMTP id MAILINDI044-eac54b82d1efaf; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:50:23 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-dd09.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 743EF380000D4; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:50:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1NjdL4-0003sd-Cq for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 18:49:02 +0000 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1NjdL3-0003sU-F2 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 18:49:01 +0000 Received: from mail-pw0-f43.google.com ([209.85.160.43]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NjdL0-0004Pf-Kk for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 18:49:01 +0000 Received: by pwj9 with SMTP id 9so2816737pwj.16 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 10:48:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=U1sO/9WkaGq7sVU7IIDPmVEDGsOsvHCPTxAuYq035To=; b=qRdO9tjSvFwVq/c1TvkdpeM/c4a/BP3GdsSmPbfYWh6bW7ZapzwNlWx4AqJuKC9dO4 C3vi4gQVoLRj2QjH0EvW2COjYhll5UMPLBanpRnnXhhMPgbAQwvE7xFqQlUHD9cKY/2s lNm8XjozEgsjiUJkLGZm639WkTcOHAr73ZYIA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=X37siAafVlDeSr4So3SB2bA4Ayp5WJ/JED70aJBXljXF5Id8hTeGUWjfqLcpQtBGLl ybVDUcwAVKfj/89yFBO/Ei2jUD91lAW8p3eMDlihFDx/q5H1FLxvksYbd38S/VHUAGDK 4JTFGNVatc8k7TAM/0BAQO7cXbVMfzx18k53Q= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.141.23.16 with SMTP id a16mr1318326rvj.290.1266864530751; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 10:48:50 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <33183.39060.qm@web28103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <33183.39060.qm@web28103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 18:48:50 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: af000206ed4ced7f Message-ID: <1f0624b91002221048g2584374fr2098db77fb00f059@mail.gmail.com> From: Gary - G4WGT To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,HTML_TAG_EXIST_TBODY=0.126 Subject: Re: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd1a5b85580f2048034e231 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, HTML_TAG_EXISTS_TBODY autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-d257.2 ; domain : googlemail.com DKIM : fail x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d40954b82d1ed2c86 X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) --000e0cd1a5b85580f2048034e231 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Pete & Group, Perhaps something like this one :- http://www.vlf.it/matteobruna/ULF_Induction-Coil.htm & others at :- http://www.vlf.it 73, Gary - G4WGT. On 22 February 2010 18:19, M0FMT wrote: > Hi Group > > Using software to calculate what I would need to load my inv "L" on 8.9 > kc/s with my 8 Ohm O/P 800 Watt audio amp I get :- > A coil/transformer of about 1 Henry which with my air cored former is 14= 00 > turns, > 2.5 km length, of 0.2mm diameter wire. > A coupling loop of about 2 turns. > Creating an antenna current of about 1 amp being driven by about 60kVolt= s. > Making a coil that will be getting pretty hot!!!!! Probably red hot. > Any suggestions?? > > > > > 73 es GL petefmt > > --- On *Mon, 22/2/10, James Cowburn * wrote: > > > From: James Cowburn > Subject: RE: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz > > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Date: Monday, 22 February, 2010, 16:31 > > All we need is a wire strung between K2 and Everest summits and fed from > base camp below? > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] > On Behalf Of Warren Ziegler > Sent: 22 February 2010 16:23 > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Subject: Re: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz > > No license is required in the US below 9kHz. > > I agree with Mal its very difficult to radiate a signal on 137kHz, let > alone 9kHz! > -- > 73 Warren K2ORS > WD2XGJ > WD2XSH/23 > WE2XEB/2 > WE2XGR/1 > > > > On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 11:10 AM, ALAN MELIA > > > > wrote: > > Hi as far as the Uk is concerned it is not allowed. You probably need= to > contact Andy G4JNT for details he did approach the regulator at one time > maybe around 2001/2 when Geri was doing his tests the answer as I rememb= er > was:- > > Frequencies below 10kHz are not allocated by International Treaty but= we > control all frequencies between DC and gamma rays, and no we will not be > issuing any licences for that region. > > > > I believe that was the RadioCommunications Agency things may be differ= ent > now with Ofcomm. The best person to know whether an approach would be > worthwhile would be John Gould G4WKL who nursed the 500k stuff through. > > > > Alan G3NYK > > > > --- On Mon, 22/2/10, Stefan_Sch=E4fer > > > wrote: > > > >> From: Stefan_Sch=E4fer > > > >> Subject: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz > >> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > >> Date: Monday, 22 February, 2010, 11:32 > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Ok Roger, > >> > >> > >> > >> And do you know if f<9kHz is free for other countries in > >> europe as > >> well? What about the UK? > >> > >> > >> > >> If such a grounded dipole is best, than it is easy to build > >> a big > >> antenna without the problems we have on LF (getting the > >> wire high above > >> ground). So we also could try big/long antennas. Waht do > >> you mean with > >> amateur levels? Power range is clear, something arround > >> 500W+-6dB. But > >> the antenna? Sure, if you think about building an antenna > >> in the > >> garden, say 2x20m, is not very effective but what about > >> 2x500m in a > >> forrest, perhaps with the loading coils (which will be on a > >> ferrite > >> toroid i think) mounted 300m apart from the center? That > >> could be > >> interesting and easy to try. No tower, no earth radials, > >> just 2 wires > >> hung up on some trees and measured the impedance at the > >> feed point, > >> that would be a first step. > >> > >> This antenna will still be bad but what we are doing -on LF > >> it is the > >> same- is beeing fascinated to reach a good distance and > >> make some > >> contacts at very low frequencies, although it would be much > >> easier on > >> 40/80m... > >> > >> And so, if one would reach 50km with such a short dipole, > >> the > >> fascination would be enormous, isn't it? ;-) > >> > >> > >> > >> Has anyone, except Horst, tried such experiments as well? > >> > >> > >> > >> With the ground wave, one could reach the whole europe, i > >> expect. But > >> that are dreams... > >> > >> > >> > >> Stefan/DK7FC > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Am 22.02.2010 11:03, schrieb Roger Lapthorn: > >> > >> At this frequency, widely spaced, grounded > >> electrode pairs are > >> probably the best "antenna". There are > >> references to how these work in > >> the literature (for example NATO AGAARD papers from the > >> 1960s, > >> available on the internet I believe) and on one of the > >> German ham sites > >> (DK8KW) - see http://www.qru.de/#vlf . > >> > >> Don't expect great ranges: up to 10kms is a fair > >> aim with modern > >> signal processing technology and reasonable (amateur > >> levels) available > >> power. Project Sanguine achieved worldwide coverage to > >> submarines at > >> 76Hz (yes Hertz!) but used enormous power and antennas > >> stretching for > >> 100s of kms. > >> > >> 73s > >> Roger G3XBM > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> 2010/2/22 Stefan Sch=E4fer > >> > > > >> > >> Hello Horst, > >> > >> > >> > >> That sounds really nice. If it would be easy to find some > >> motivated OMs > >> in the near field (31km) ;-), that would be an interesting > >> field to > >> test. > >> > >> > >> > >> Yesterday i have thought about possible antenna > >> configurations for that > >> range and got the idea that one could use a forrest as an > >> antenna > >> tower. There, you could hang up 100s meters of wire, in > >> series and in > >> parallel. You do not need to have that area beside your > >> house. Nobody > >> will see the wire and nobody will care about it. > >> > >> Since summer 2007 i have a horizontal loop antenna mounted > >> in some > >> trees on my hill with excellent results on all HF bands and > >> also 160m. > >> The loop has 130m and is mounted up to 12m above ground. > >> Perfect > >> matching from 160m to 10m with my symmetric tuner. I even > >> tried > >> matching on 2200m without a problem but with bad ODX > >> results, of > >> course. But if one would try 2x 10*100m on VLF, the ODX > >> would be > >> interesting... > >> > >> > >> > >> JO30OT is abt 160km from JN49IS and thus a little far i > >> think ;-) > >> > >> > >> > >> What is your RX antenna and have you already catched some > >> commercial > >> VLF stations in that range? Are there some? > >> > >> > >> > >> 73, Stefan > >> > >> > >> > >> PS: One can be sure that there will never be SSB operation > >> ;-) > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> > >> > >> > >> Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > >> im Auftrag von Horst St=F6cker > >> > >> > >> Gesendet: Mo 22.02.2010 09:29 > >> > >> An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > >> > >> > >> Betreff: RE: LF: AW: Beaconing on 8.79 kHz in QRSS > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Hallo Stefan, > >> > >> > >> > >> there was a notice in Funkamateur 12/05, S. 1287, that in > >> DL the range > >> <9kHz is free. > >> > >> > >> > >> I could not believe that so I asked the BNetzA and after a > >> while I got > >> a letter which confirmed that. > >> > >> > >> > >> So there nothing you've got to do for getting a > >> licence. You do not > >> need one. > >> > >> > >> > >> There is no limitation of technical parameters like > >> bandwith or power. > >> > >> > >> > >> Hard to believe in german, but obviously true. > >> > >> > >> > >> My QTH is Siegburg JO30OT > >> > >> > >> > >> Horst > >> > >> ___________________________________________________________ > >> > >> NEU: Mit WEB.DE DSL =FCber 1000,- =BF sparen! > >> > >> http://produkte.web.de/go/02/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> > >> > >> http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ > >> > >> http://www.g3xbm.co.uk > >> > >> http://www.youtube.com/user/G3XBM > >> > >> G3XBM GQRP 1678 ISWL > >> G11088 > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> ---------------------------- > >> Dipl.-Ing. Stefan Sch=E4fer > >> Institut f=FCr Umweltphysik der Universit=E4t > >> Heidelberg > >> Im Neuenheimer Feld 229 > >> D-69120 Heidelberg, Germany > >> > >> schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de > >> Phone: (+49) (0)6221 546387 > >> Fax: (+49) (0)6221 546405 > >> > >> www.iup.uni-heidelberg.de > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > --000e0cd1a5b85580f2048034e231 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Pete & Group,

Perhaps something like this one :-=

http://www.vlf.it/matteobruna/ULF_Induction-Coil.htm<= /div>

& others at :-

http://www.vlf.it

73, =A0G= ary - G4WGT.


On 22 February= 2010 18:19, M0FMT <m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Group
=A0
Using software to calculate what I would need to load my inv "L&= quot;=A0 on 8.9 kc/s with my 8 Ohm O/P=A0800 Watt audio amp I get :-
A coil/transformer of about 1 Henry which with my air cored former is= 1400 turns,
2.5 km length, of 0.2mm diameter wire.
A coupling loop of about 2 turns.
Creating an antenna current of about 1 amp being driven by about 60kV= olts. Making=A0a coil that will be getting pretty hot!!!!! Probably red ho= t.
Any suggestions??
=A0
=A0
=A0=A0

73 es GL petefmt

--- On Mon, 22/2/10, James= Cowburn <james.cowburn@virgin.net> wrote:

From: James Cowburn <james.cowburn@virgin.net>
Subj= ect: RE: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz

To: = rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Date: Monday, 22 February, 2010,= 16:31

All we need is a wire strung between K2 and Everest= summits and fed from
base camp below?



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
[mailto:owner-rsgb_= lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Warren Ziegler
Sent: 22 Febru= ary 2010 16:23
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksh= eep.org
Subject: Re: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz

No license is required= in the US below 9kHz.

I agree with Mal its very difficult to radiate a signal on 137kHz, let=
alone 9kHz!
--
73 Warren K2ORS
=A0= =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 WD2XGJ
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 WD2XSH/23
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 WE2XEB/2
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 WE2XGR/1


On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 11:10 AM, ALAN MELIA <alan.melia@btinternet.com>
wrote:
> Hi as far as the Uk is concerned it is not allowed. You= probably need to
contact Andy G4JNT for details he did approach the re= gulator at one time
maybe around 2001/2 when Geri was doing his tests= the answer as I remember
was:-
> Frequencies below 10kHz are not allocated by International= Treaty but we
control all frequencies between DC and gamma rays, and= no we will not be
issuing any licences for that region.
>
>= ; I believe that was the RadioCommunications Agency things may be differen= t
now with Ofcomm. The best person to know whether an approach would be
wort= hwhile would be John Gould G4WKL who nursed the 500k stuff through.
>= ;
> Alan G3NYK
>
&g= t; --- On Mon, 22/2/10, Stefan_Sch=E4fer
<Stefan.Schae= fer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> wrote:
>
>> From: Stefan_= Sch=E4fer <St= efan.Schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de>
>> Subject: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz
>> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
>> Dat= e: Monday, 22 February, 2010, 11:32
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>= >
>>
>>
>> Ok Roger,
>>
>>=
>>
>> And do you know if f<9kHz is free for other co= untries in
>> europe as
>> well? What about the UK?
>>
>= ;>
>>
>> If such a grounded dipole is best, than it= is easy to build
>> a big
>> antenna without the proble= ms we have on LF (getting the
>> wire high above
>> ground). So we also could try big/lon= g antennas. Waht do
>> you mean with
>> amateur levels?= Power range is clear, something arround
>> 500W+-6dB. But
>= ;> the antenna? Sure, if you think about building an antenna
>> in the
>> garden, say 2x20m, is not very effective but= what about
>> 2x500m in a
>> forrest, perhaps with the= loading coils (which will be on a
>> ferrite
>> toroid i think) mounted 300m apart from the center?= That
>> could be
>> interesting and easy to try. No tow= er, no earth radials,
>> just 2 wires
>> hung up on some= trees and measured the impedance at the
>> feed point,
>> that would be a first step.
>>>> This antenna will still be bad but what we are doing -on LF
= >> it is the
>> same- is beeing fascinated to reach a good= distance and
>> make some
>> contacts at very low frequencies, although= it would be much
>> easier on
>> 40/80m...
>><= br>>> And so, if one would reach 50km with such a short dipole,
&= gt;> the
>> fascination would be enormous, isn't it? ;-)
>>
&= gt;>
>>
>> Has anyone, except Horst, tried such exper= iments as well?
>>
>>
>>
>> With the= ground wave, one could reach the whole europe, i
>> expect. But
>>= that are dreams...
>>
>>
>>
>> Stefan= /DK7FC
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>= >
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 22.02.2010 11:03, schrieb= Roger Lapthorn:
>>
>> =A0 At this frequency, widely spa= ced,=A0grounded
>> electrode pairs are
>> probably the= best "antenna".=A0 There are
>> references to how these work in
>> the literature (for= example NATO AGAARD papers from the
>> 1960s,
>> availa= ble on the internet I believe) and on one of the
>> German ham si= tes
>> (DK8KW) - see http://www.qru.de/#vlf=A0.
>>
>= ;> =A0 Don't expect great ranges: up to 10kms is a fair
>>= aim with modern
>> signal processing=A0technology and reasonable (amateur
>> levels) avail= able
>> power. Project Sanguine achieved worldwide coverage to>> submarines at
>> 76Hz (yes Hertz!) but used enormous po= wer and antennas
>> stretching for
>> 100s of kms.
>>
>>= =A0 73s
>> =A0 Roger G3XBM
>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>> =A0 2010/2/22 Stefan Sch=E4fer
>&= gt; <schaefer@hst.tu-d= armstadt.de>
>>
>> =A0 Hello Horst,
>>
>>
>><= br>>> That sounds really nice. If it would be easy to find some
&= gt;> motivated OMs
>> in the near field (31km) ;-), that would= be an interesting
>> field to
>> test.
>>
>>
>>>> Yesterday i have thought about possible antenna
>> configuration= s for that
>> range and got the idea that one could use a forrest= as an
>> antenna
>> tower. There, you could hang up 100= s meters of wire, in
>> series and in
>> parallel. You do not need to have that= area beside your
>> house. Nobody
>> will see the wire= and nobody will care about it.
>>
>> Since summer 2007= i have a horizontal loop antenna mounted
>> in some
>> trees on my hill with excellent results on al= l HF bands and
>> also 160m.
>> The loop has 130m and is= mounted up to 12m above ground.
>> Perfect
>> matching= from 160m to 10m with my symmetric tuner. I even
>> tried
>> matching on 2200m without a problem but with ba= d ODX
>> results, of
>> course. But if one would try 2x= 10*100m on VLF, the ODX
>> would be
>> interesting...
>>
>>
>>>> JO30OT is abt 160km from JN49IS and thus a little far i
>= > think ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>> What is you= r RX antenna and have you already catched some
>> commercial
>> VLF stations in that range? Are there some= ?
>>
>>
>>
>> 73, Stefan
>>>>
>>
>> PS: One can be sure that there will nev= er be SSB operation
>> ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>> _____________= ___________________
>>
>>
>>
>> Von:= owner-rsgb_lf_grou= p@blacksheep.org
>> im Auftrag von Horst St=F6cker
>>
>>
>>= ; Gesendet: Mo 22.02.2010 09:29
>>
>> =A0 =A0 An: rsgb_lf_group@blacks= heep.org
>>
>>
>> Betreff: RE: LF: AW: Beac= oning on 8.79 kHz in QRSS
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
&g= t;>
>>
>> Hallo Stefan,
>>
>>
&g= t;>
>> there was a notice in Funkamateur 12/05, S. 1287, that= in
>> DL the range
>> <9kHz is free.
>>
>>= ;
>>
>> I could not believe that so I asked the BNetzA= and after a
>> while I got
>> a letter which confirmed= that.
>>
>>
>>
>> So there nothing you've= got to do for getting a
>> licence. You do not
>> need= one.
>>
>>
>>
>> There is no limitati= on of technical parameters like
>> bandwith or power.
>>
>>
>>
>> Hard to believe in= german, but obviously true.
>>
>>
>>
>&g= t; My QTH is Siegburg JO30OT
>>
>>
>>
>&g= t; Horst
>>
>> _____________________________________________________= ______
>>
>> NEU: Mit WEB.DE DSL =FCber 1000,- =BF sparen!
>>
>&g= t; =A0 =A0 http://produkte.web.de/go/02/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
&g= t;>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>= >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>= ;>
>>
>>
>> =A0 htt= p://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/
>>
>> =A0 http://www.g3xbm.= co.uk
>>
>> =A0 http://www.youtube.com/user/G3XBM
&= gt;>
>> G3XBM =A0 =A0GQRP 1678 =A0 =A0 =A0ISWL
>> G11= 088
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ----------------------------
>>= Dipl.-Ing. Stefan Sch=E4fer
>> Institut f=FCr Umweltphysik der= Universit=E4t
>> Heidelberg
>> Im Neuenheimer Feld 229
>> D-6912= 0 Heidelberg, Germany
>>
>> schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de
>> Phone: (+49) (0)6221 546387
>> Fax: (+49) (0)6221 546405=
>>
>> www.iup.un= i-heidelberg.de
>>
>>
>>
>
>



--000e0cd1a5b85580f2048034e231--