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The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Hi Paul R.,My objection was the proposed (GOTA) infrastructure use, such as motorway guards, fences, railway lines etc., and pylon towers as makeshift VLF antennas. This has the potential to upset sig [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [77.238.176.99 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (evad_hine[at]yahoo.co.uk) 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: b94ece9466137fb0eee8344788d30cd4 Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Re: VLF: GOTA Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_26843199_968933822.1547229925807" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, hits=3.2 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_MUA_MOZILLA,HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false ------=_Part_26843199_968933822.1547229925807 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Paul R.,My objection was the proposed (GOTA) infrastructure use, such as= motorway guards, fences, railway lines etc., and pylon towers as makeshift= VLF antennas. This has the potential to upset signalling, and other infras= tructure communications, as well as placing wires=C2=A0 and other 'junk' that could also prove a physical hazard. Such activity is = strictly illegal, and will lead to a jail sentence if caught on camera. Tha= t must be far more important than radio experiments that won't work anyway.= My Wikipedia Project Sanguine reference was adequate for purpose here, and = shows how inefficient these obsolete ELF TX antennas really are.As you know= , VLF TX antennas must be vertical polarised -that is vertical masts to be = able to radiate a signal, and these have to be=C2=A0 around 1000 feet high to launch a VLF signal effectively. A low horizontal = structure at ELF / VLF would have dismally low efficiency, no=C2=A0better t= han a wire Beverage VLF receiving antenna, and that's why I mentioned the B= everage.Anyway, the main point is never be tempted to use any utility struc= ture (including metal bridges) as any sort of radio antenna.If you still di= sagree with my post, ask what the RSGB or Ofcom thinks of this, and report = back here their reply.Regards, David.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 From: REEVES Paul To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" =20 Sent: Friday, 11 January 2019, 10:56 Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Re: VLF: GOTA =20 #yiv6317160443 #yiv6317160443 -- _filtered #yiv6317160443 {font-family:Helv= etica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv6317160443 {font-family= :Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv6317160443 {font-f= amily:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv6317160443 {fon= t-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv6317160443 #yiv631716044= 3 p.yiv6317160443MsoNormal, #yiv6317160443 li.yiv6317160443MsoNormal, #yiv6= 317160443 div.yiv6317160443MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font= -size:12.0pt;font-family:New;}#yiv6317160443 a:link, #yiv6317160443 span.yi= v6317160443MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv63171604= 43 a:visited, #yiv6317160443 span.yiv6317160443MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:= purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv6317160443 span.yiv6317160443EmailSty= le17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv6317160443 .yiv6317160443MsoChpDefault {font-size:= 10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv6317160443 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}#yiv= 6317160443 div.yiv6317160443WordSection1 {}#yiv6317160443 Hi David, =C2=A0= Several points of contention here =E2=80=93 your description of Project sa= nguine is incorrect in some details (but you can blame Wikipedia for that).= It was, in fact, rather like the antenna you so strongly object to. I woul= d suggest you obtain a copy of =E2=80=98ELF Communications Antennas=E2=80= =99 by Burrows. It is a bit dated now but is a good beginners text. While V= LF antennas tend towards vertical polarisation (I note you change from ELF = to VLF here=E2=80=A6.) vertical polarisation is not a specific requirement = for propagation but does make a rather more easily constructed (relatively = compact) antenna for the frequencies concerned. I would also disagree with = your description of the Beverage but why introduce it? Discussion about whe= ther or not to connect to infrastructure belonging to other entities is ano= ther matter entirely. My background, by the way, is in antenna and comms sy= stem design for submarine systems so feel free to ignore me =E2=80=93 I hav= e a rather narrow viewpoint! Regards, Paul=C2=A0=C2=A0 g8gja =C2=A0 From: = owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.o= rg]On Behalf Of David Hine Sent: 11 January 2019 09:30 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Re: VLF: GOTA =C2=A0 Hi Neil, Then only publishe= d info that I'm aware of is the ELF antenna used by the USA to transmit ELF= signals on 76 Hz to submarines. This was 'Project Sanguine'. It used about= 15 miles of power cable suspended on 30 foot poles above ground and was ea= rthed at each=C2=A0 =C2=A0 end. A TX of around 5 Megawatts, about half way= along this cable supplied the 76 Hz at a few hundred Amps. The radiated po= wer was around 3 Watts, and was just sufficient to travel the globe. Projec= t Sanguine was abandoned some years ago, as it fell obsolete as new sophist= icated comms replaced it, such as satellites etc.. It was very expensive, o= nly one way comms, and the 15 mile of cable was constantly being attacked b= y vandals and metal thieves. Russia still uses a similar system on 82 Hz (Z= evs), and they shoot to kill anyone tampering with their cable!!!=C2=A0 The= re is an excellent Wikipedia page on Project Sanguine. Basically, it was a = very inefficient monster narrow loop. Otherwise, conventional Marconi verti= cal masts tuned against ground are used for VLF TX'ing the vertically polar= ised signals, at any=C2=A0 =C2=A0 VLF frequency up to the LW broadcasting = band. From my experience, long low metal structures of any kind do not make= good VLF / ELF TX antennas, and for that reason are never employed. Also, = they do not generate a vertically polarised signal, which is very necessary= for VLF and ELF propagation. The historic 'Beverage' type of horizontal wi= re antenna is long, but only suitable for reception (very inefficient as a = TX antenna). Vertical balloon suspended wires do work, but you must observe= the maximum height restrictions allowed in any particular location. I hope= this is useful. Kind regards, David =C2=A0 =C2=A0 From: Neil To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sent: Thursday, 10 January 2019, 21:23 Subject: Re: VLF: GOTA =C2=A0 This sounds interesting. Can you point at an= y published results to explain what technique was used, what power was used= to obtain those results, and how the signal was launched? I imagine lots o= f people are considering the use of long lengths of metal infrastructure (o= n private land, with the express permission of the landowner), so if there = is a solution which is demonstrably better, it would save a lot of unnecess= ary trouble for experimenters. Do you have any numbers comparing the techni= que used in these experiments against those obtained from using long length= s of armco or metal fencing or huge bridges, (putting aside any arguments a= bout the rights and wrongs).=C2=A0 It would be good to see a documented com= parison to show by what margin the experimental technique used is superior = to using low steel structures with a large horizontal extent. Neil On 10/01= /2019 18:37, David Hine wrote: ... TX connexions to motorway=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = guard rails, railway infrastructure, electric / gas supply utilities and fe= nces etc. are totally unnecessary for the transmitting of ELF=C2=A0 =C2=A0= signals.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 These DO NOT make good VLF / ELF TX antennas .. = =C2=A0=20 =20 ------=_Part_26843199_968933822.1547229925807 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Paul R.,
My objection was the propo= sed (GOTA) infrastructure use, such as motorway guards, fences, railway lin= es etc., and pylon towers as makeshift VLF antennas. This has the potential= to upset signalling, and other infrastructure communications, as well as p= lacing wires 

and other 'junk' that= could also prove a physical hazard. Such activity is strictly illegal, and= will lead to a jail sentence if caught on camera. That must be far more im= portant than radio experiments that won't work anyway.
My Wi= kipedia Project Sanguine reference was adequate for purpose here, and shows= how inefficient these obsolete ELF TX antennas really are.
= As you know, VLF TX antennas must be vertical polarised -that is vertical m= asts to be able to radiate a signal, and these have to be 

around 1000 feet high to launch a VLF signal effect= ively. A low horizontal structure at ELF / VLF would have dismally low effi= ciency, no
 better than a wire Beverage VLF receiving a= ntenna, and that's why I mentioned the Beverage.
Anyway, the= main point is never be tempted to use any utility structure (including met= al bridges) as any sort of radio antenna.
If you still disag= ree with my post, ask what the RSGB or Ofcom thinks of this, and report bac= k here their reply.
Regards, David. 
&nb= sp;
 

From: REEVES Paul <Paul.Reeves@= uk.thalesgroup.com>
To:= "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org> Sent: Frid= ay, 11 January 2019, 10:56
Subjec= t: RE: [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Re: VLF: GOTA

Hi David,
=20
 
=20
Several points of contention here =E2=80=93 your description of P= roject sanguine is incorrect in some details (but you can blame Wikipedia f= or that). It was, in fact, rather like the antenna you so strongly object to. I would suggest you obt= ain a copy of =E2=80=98ELF Communications Antennas=E2=80=99 by Burrows. It = is a bit dated now but is a good beginners text.
=20
Whi= le VLF antennas tend towards vertical polarisation (I note you change from = ELF to VLF here=E2=80=A6.) vertical polarisation is not a specific requirem= ent for propagation but does make a rather more easily constructed (relatively compact) antenn= a for the frequencies concerned. I would also disagree with your descriptio= n of the Beverage but why introduce it?
=20
Dis= cussion about whether or not to connect to infrastructure belonging to othe= r entities is another matter entirely.
=20
My = background, by the way, is in antenna and comms system design for submarine= systems so feel free to ignore me =E2=80=93 I have a rather narrow viewpoi= nt!
=20
Reg= ards,
=20
Pau= l   g8gja
=20
&n= bsp;
=20
From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacks= heep.org] On Behalf Of David Hine
Sent: 11 January 2019 09:30
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Re: VLF: GOTA
=20
 
=20
Hi Neil, Then only published info that I'm aware o= f is the ELF antenna used by the USA to transmit ELF signals on 76 Hz to su= bmarines. This was 'Project Sanguine'. It used about 15 miles of power cable suspend= ed on 30 foot poles above ground and was earthed at each 
= =20
 
=20
end. A TX of around 5 Megawatts, about half way al= ong this cable supplied the 76 Hz at a few hundred Amps. The radiated power= was around 3 Watts, and was just sufficient to travel the globe. Project Sanguine was= abandoned some years ago, as it fell obsolete as new sophisticated comms r= eplaced it, such as satellites etc.. It was very expensive, only one way co= mms, and the 15 mile of cable was constantly being attacked by vandals and metal thieves. Russia still uses = a similar system on 82 Hz (Zevs), and they shoot to kill anyone tampering w= ith their cable!!! 
=20
There is an excellent Wikipedia page on Project Sa= nguine. Basically, it was a very inefficient monster narrow loop.=20
Otherwise, conventional Marconi vertical masts tun= ed against ground are used for VLF TX'ing the vertically polarised signals,= at any 
=20
 
=20
VLF frequency up to the LW broadcasting band.
=20
From my experience, long low metal structures of a= ny kind do not make good VLF / ELF TX antennas, and for that reason are nev= er employed.
=20
Also, they do not generate a vertically polarised = signal, which is very necessary for VLF and ELF propagation. The historic '= Beverage' type of horizontal wire antenna is long, but only suitable for reception (= very inefficient as a TX antenna).
=20
Vertical balloon suspended wires do work, but you = must observe the maximum height restrictions allowed in any particular loca= tion.
=20
I hope this is useful.
=20
Kind regards, David  
=20
 
=20
From: Neil <neil@g4dbn.uk>
To: rsgb_lf= _group@blacksheep.org
Sent: Thurs= day, 10 January 2019, 21:23
Subject: Re: VLF: GOTA
=20
 
=20
This sounds interesting. Can you point at any published results to = explain what technique was used, what power was used to obtain those result= s, and how the signal was launched? I imagine lots of people are considering the = use of long lengths of metal infrastructure (on private land, with the expr= ess permission of the landowner), so if there is a solution which is demons= trably better, it would save a lot of unnecessary trouble for experimenters.
=20
Do you have any numbers comparing the technique used in these exper= iments against those obtained from using long lengths of armco or metal fen= cing or huge bridges, (putting aside any arguments about the rights and wrongs).&n= bsp; It would be good to see a documented comparison to show by what margin= the experimental technique used is superior to using low steel structures = with a large horizontal extent.
=20
Neil
=20
On 10/01/2019 18:37, David Hine wrote:
=20
... TX connexions to motorway 
=20
 
=20
guard rails, railway infrastructure, electric / ga= s supply utilities and fences etc. are totally unnecessary for the transmit= ting of ELF 
=20
 
=20
signals. 
=20
 
=20
These DO NOT make good VLF / ELF TX antennas ..
=20
 
=20


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