Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by klubnl.pl (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id w1AL20tQ004788 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2018 22:02:02 +0100 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1ekcDC-0007N6-PC for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 10 Feb 2018 20:57:30 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1ekcDC-0007Mx-8v for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 10 Feb 2018 20:57:30 +0000 Received: from sonic304-23.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com ([77.238.179.148]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1ekcD9-0006qd-8c for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 10 Feb 2018 20:57:29 +0000 X-DKIM-Result: Domain=yahoo.co.uk Result=Good and Known Domain DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.co.uk; s=s2048; t=1518296245; bh=BVYJnteCpggsXiYQyZMNXtECMwR3qBtf5grUPcQuHb4=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=cdu/E3zBBWRFVvXNURz+5//iQBG2eAusNb0xB5WH9RJ82/JI6aUoW0daSonhEbk7qG0XC6ONshbpX0JeC4j5gyOaafhQ+k1F49IiglhcgDtxtHIGWAV5B/aHlsgSQXoRAt6bURVX6R1syYsWlZWTygnqkzV/+3k6g6413k5wRdb/CbGKQ9rJuibNGEO1TeQtWTZJ5wtcWPjbN4aHVxbwPqIcuXBILJMc2kjRDi284zE63NWaDM1wtHkNckIEkrtgRNSxURTLaTXXZ4hBUYIqJwIaOH3usPuennC6hUXhKPBmNXehf0WEbLARLqhVY7AFF/DNGZtqonySPyCAsSx4IA== X-YMail-OSG: 2YWtjO8VM1mjm7M8G9VLeQ819rPNMAyyCJHrKmsC1lkPdGZrd7fqzXglEjLsteN J.NTuOduJA2BaINFqytlNiRyjklbP9VD_P3E_A5qvArD.ADoEdDCAfZs48uH7YTc7tgkkFoH5TRc 4KuYEPcSDNH0I_N_lYLQ8MZqJ790qPYzIo5OfZjHJ6HZD1K7xo_gaeYE2xh17cpBMPAXmduU9f0. 2rhrRyMd_CDL9oluH1l6IzIYpVaFoXIurtTZ1A3kdGjTW93nSPZ7eGYA9HtLLBzU2pftXuFbTVZX 2GKtpmFoAgpGH1ETsMvx5dr8qoKFUq8PbXPL.XRVepk963C4sZwP.duaU_13Czz00zzpTRCzPA_2 z3OLcNJN_gD.8.NZDwoxBeNJ4exaz1_3RFU3fscyUr39x.Ov295nNRL5K3mlw4Uprj01DNkOs5AP _uaIvS4I_C4vu7pFVx29uuA8khr4cVQTnNpHr9U2NEj0ZtDXRyDEKYrhYkftmrTAWU2CunQ-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic304.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 10 Feb 2018 20:57:25 +0000 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 20:57:14 +0000 (UTC) From: David Hine To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" Message-ID: <1693630365.11284361.1518296234104@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1618164fdce-c89-1c0a1@webjas-vab059.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1618164fdce-c89-1c0a1@webjas-vab059.srv.aolmail.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.11316 YahooMailNeo Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/58.0.3029.110 Safari/537.36 Edge/16.16299 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Hi Markus, It could be 'scalar waves', I really don't know. All I can do is try the 'thing' at higher LF frequencies to see what happens. I would expect the 'explanation theories' would come later, depending on what happens. It's a 'tricky' one, and is not understood and makes no sense using conventional methods. This is where the radio experimenter will do things that professionals (who think they know it all), will not go.With very kind regards, David. [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (evad_hine[at]yahoo.co.uk) 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: fa743f59d022704fe4104ed922c6083c Subject: Re: VLF: 1.6 Hz from Kiruna? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_11284360_1145275061.1518296234100" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, hits=3.5 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_MUA_MOZILLA,HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false ------=_Part_11284360_1145275061.1518296234100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Markus, It could be 'scalar waves', I really don't know. All I can do is= try the 'thing' at higher LF frequencies to see what happens. I would expe= ct the 'explanation theories' would come later, depending on what happens. = It's a 'tricky' one, and is not understood and makes no sense using convent= ional methods. This is where the radio experimenter will do things that pro= fessionals (who think they know it all), will not go.With very kind regards= , David. From: Markus Vester To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Saturday, 10 February 2018, 20:28 Subject: Re: VLF: 1.6 Hz from Kiruna? =20 Hi Clemens, David, not sure if scalar wave proponents would accept that their antenna efficien= cies are=C2=A0restricted by the Chu-Wheeler limit... To my understanding, the reason for this fundamental Q limit=C2=A0is the en= ergy stored in the 1/r^3=C2=A0near field, which necessarily has to exist in= the space=C2=A0between the outer dimensions of a small antenna and the far= -field boundary lambda/2pi. The assumption is that twice per cycle, the cap= acitive=C2=A0energy of an electric antenna has to be converted to magnetic = energy in the loading coil, and vice versa. The same applies for the magnet= ic energy of a resonanted loop antenna connected to a=C2=A0tuning capacitor= .=C2=A0 Recently =C2=A0someone in the LF Group mentioned a possible DARPA grant for= the development of small VLF transmitters, based on mechanical movement (v= ibration or rotation) of permanent magnets or polarized dielectrics.=C2=A0O= f Course, a rotating magnet would also need to be surrounded=C2=A0by same n= ear-field energy as a loop (or in this case a pair of orthogonal loops for = circular polarisation). But it wouldn't necessarily need to convert the mag= netic energy to elecrtric energy. In the double-loop analogy, the magnetic = energy from one coil would be directly transferred into magnetic energy in = the other coil.=C2=A0So would the Chu limit=C2=A0still apply?=C2=A0 It seems that the only bandwidth limit would be related to the mechanical m= ass and inertia of the rotating structure, which=C2=A0could be made arbitra= rily small (e.g. a rotating superconducting DC coil). Or would we need to c= onsider the mass of the stored energy itself, m=3DE/c^2 ?=20 Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: Clemens Paul An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: Sa, 10. Feb 2018 20:43 Betreff: RE: VLF: 1.6 Hz from Kiruna? Hi David, >>Maybe you can disclose at least the the 3dB BW of this kind of antenna? >Hi Clemens, I'm not sure I understand your question. The 3 dB bandwidth is f0/Q and Q is defined as X/R where X is the reactance of the inductor and the capacitor at the resonant frequency. The lossless-Q of a small antenna is a useful academic quantity, and is the reactance divided by the radiation-resistance. It gives the maximum theoretical Q for any given small antenna, and then the actual Q can be measured on the real antenna. The radiation efficiency is the lossless Q divided by the actual Q, by the equations: Qlossless =3D X/Rrad, Qactual =3D X/(Rrad+Rloss), Qactual/Qlossless =3D Rrad/(Rrad+Rloss) =3D radiation efficiency. An interesting limit for small antennas is the minimum lossless Q that can be achieved, and was derived by Chu in 1948 from only the frequency and the size of the antenna. 73 Clemens DL4RAJ=20 >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 >[mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of David Hine >Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 7:13 PM >To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >Subject: Re: VLF: 1.6 Hz from Kiruna? > =20 ------=_Part_11284360_1145275061.1518296234100 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Markus, It= could be 'scalar waves', I really don't know. All I can do is try the 'thi= ng' at higher LF frequencies to see what happens. I would expect the 'expla= nation theories' would come later, depending on what happens. It's a 'trick= y' one, and is not understood and makes no sense using conventional methods= . This is where the radio experimenter will do things that professionals (w= ho think they know it all), will not go.
With very kind regards, David.


= From: Markus Vester <mar= kusvester@aol.com>
To:<= /b> rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Sent: Saturday, 10 February 2018, 20:28
Subject: Re: VLF: 1.6 Hz from Kiruna?

<= div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1518295064611_12421" style=3D"color:black;font-= family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">Hi Clemens, David,

not sure if scalar wave proponents would = accept that their antenna efficiencies are restricted by the Chu-Wheel= er limit...

To my understanding, the r= eason for this fundamental Q limit is the energy stored in the 1/r^3&n= bsp;near field, which necessarily has to exist in the space between th= e outer dimensions of a small antenna and the far-field boundary lambda/2pi= . The assumption is that twice per cycle, the capacitive energy of an = electric antenna has to be converted to magnetic energy in the loading coil= , and vice versa. The same applies for the magnetic energy of a resonanted = loop antenna connected to a tuning capacitor. 
=
Recently  someone in the LF Group mentioned a possi= ble DARPA grant for the development of small VLF transmitters, based on mec= hanical movement (vibration or rotation) of permanent magnets or polarized = dielectrics. Of Course, a rotating magnet would also need to be surrou= nded by same near-field energy as a loop (or in this case a pair of or= thogonal loops for circular polarisation). But it wouldn't necessarily need= to convert the magnetic energy to elecrtric energy. In the double-loop ana= logy, the magnetic energy from one coil would be directly transferred into = magnetic energy in the other coil. So would the Chu limit still a= pply? 

It seems that the only ban= dwidth limit would be related to the mechanical mass and inertia of the rot= ating structure, which could be made arbitrarily small (e.g. a rotatin= g superconducting DC coil). Or would we need to consider the mass of the st= ored energy itself, m=3DE/c^2 ?

Best = 73,
Markus (DF6NM)

---= --Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: Clemens Paul &= lt;cpaul@gmx.net>
An: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@= blacksheep.org>
Verschickt: Sa, 10. Feb 2018 20:43
Betreff: RE: VLF: 1.6 Hz from Kiruna?

Hi David,

>= ;>Maybe you can disclose at least the the 3dB BW of this kind of antenna= ?

>Hi Clemens, I'm not sure I under= stand your question.

The 3 dB bandwidt= h is f0/Q and Q is defined as X/R
where X is the reactan= ce of the inductor and the capacitor at the
resonant freq= uency.

The lossless-Q of a small anten= na is a useful academic quantity, and is
the reactance di= vided by the radiation-resistance. It gives the maximum
= theoretical Q for any given small antenna, and then the actual Q can be
measured on the real antenna. The radiation efficiency is t= he lossless Q
divided by the actual Q, by the equations:<= br clear=3D"none">
Qlossless =3D X/Rrad,

Qactual =3D X/(Rrad+Rloss),

Qactual/Qlossless =3D Rrad/(Rrad+Rloss) =3D radiation efficiency= .

An interesting limit for small anten= nas is the minimum lossless Q that can
be achieved, and w= as derived by Chu in 1948 from only the frequency and
the= size of the antenna.

73
Clemens
DL4RAJ


>-----Original Message-----
>Fr= om: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
>[ma= ilto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of David Hine
>Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 7:13 PM
>To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
>Subject: Re: VL= F: 1.6 Hz from Kiruna?
>




=
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