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[195.171.43.25]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id mx7si2298565wic.37.1969.12.31.16.00.00; Tue, 01 Oct 2013 15:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) client-ip=195.171.43.25; Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) smtp.mail=owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; dkim=pass header.i=@mx.aol.com Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1VR80g-0001MR-Lz for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 Oct 2013 23:01:38 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1VR80f-0001MI-QA for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 Oct 2013 23:01:37 +0100 Received: from omr-d09.mx.aol.com ([205.188.108.133]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1VR80b-0007qP-RU for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 Oct 2013 23:01:36 +0100 Received: from mtaout-db05.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaout-db05.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.197]) by omr-d09.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id E95087014B86A for ; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 18:01:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from White (95-91-237-85-dynip.superkabel.de [95.91.237.85]) by mtaout-db05.r1000.mx.aol.com (MUA/Third Party Client Interface) with ESMTPA id 87BB8E0000CC for ; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 18:01:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <165B7CAEA35B4A1CB2CF3925B76241D9@White> From: "Markus Vester" To: References: <524999E7.3030001@gmx.de> <514630078B86410FB0CE8027D1FFFC0A@White> <9363034814A447E6B8CDFA9ADD928A87@White>,<01880E2E348E4A908B97F2D7FB1587B9@White> , Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2013 00:01:26 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 12.0.1606 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V12.0.1606 x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20121107; t=1380664891; bh=alwqjSI58eVKXqh2hCR9MuoY/zyr6DW6iUOJJgbULIs=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=EGejptRRb6eRKMLVGjWd9yt25RaG7aMWh9fn6iov207ZfoMwoXWqFE7nU5GfdgFGe Roo1gcguaIA7iLIKOKZ4Aq/m6pPnRpj8bgpKNtKgfqOycsb/RFBxB0ABmpKh5dncwB o2qmCXAo3M+GC96Ra8uFfcp8KOiwiCp/THb3VDJk= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d33c5524b463839bc X-AOL-IP: 95.91.237.85 X-Spam-Score: 0.4 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Ok, then I'd suggest moving just a tad up to the middle between whole Hz, ie you on 74549.5 and Dex on 74548.5 Hz. That would keep you guys in view of anyone watching now, and seems to be perfectly clear in Hartmut's captures as well as on Gary's G4WGT grabber. [...] Content analysis details: (0.4 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [205.188.108.133 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (markusvester[at]aol.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.7 RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid 1.0 FREEMAIL_REPLY From and body contain different freemails X-Scan-Signature: b571f883ff99b45cd5917921e51090d3 Subject: Re: LF: Clear spots around 74.55 kHz Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01CEBF02.89DC0260" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.9 required=5.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2236 Dies ist eine mehrteilige Nachricht im MIME-Format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01CEBF02.89DC0260 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok, then I'd suggest moving just a tad up to the middle between whole = Hz, ie you on 74549.5 and Dex on 74548.5 Hz. That would keep you guys in = view of anyone watching now, and seems to be perfectly clear in = Hartmut's captures as well as on Gary's G4WGT grabber. Best 73, Markus From: Bob Raide=20 Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2013 11:48 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: RE: LF: Clear spots around 74.55 kHz Markus; I am not the one that has to rx it! Shoot Hartmut an email-I am sure = you both can agree on something! =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: markusvester@aol.com To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2013 23:32:58 +0200 Subject: Re: LF: Clear spots around 74.55 kHz Bob, yes sure, it's not my intention to persuade you or Dex or anyone else to = QSY at this time. Its more a matter of just getting aquainted with the = new band's constraints and opportunities. Identifying common clear = frequencies may become more valuable as we are (hopefully) approaching = lower noise winter nights. DCF77 is probably more of a problem in this = area around south/west DL, compared to the UK or elsewhere in Europe. Best of luck again, Markus (DF6NM) From: Bob Raide=20 Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2013 10:42 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: RE: LF: Clear spots around 74.55 kHz Markus; I would agree to the comment that you made regarding "way it is now, = but" yes it seems to change night to night-there always seems to be = junk on the whole hz freqs but between them seems clear so far for our = operations. I noticed even on Hartmut's captures last night 74.549 had = "artifacts" present-weak but present and never saw or noticed them = before with his directional RX ant. But .2 hz higher was absolutely = "junk" free. Bob=20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: markusvester@aol.com To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2013 22:29:42 +0200 Subject: LF: Clear spots around 74.55 kHz Here's a slightly wider view of DCF77 "phasenoise" around 74.55 kHz = http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/74k_131001_2001.png You can see some "sweet spots" around 74557, 74552 and 74540 Hz, wheras = the vicinity of 74549 seems more affected. Not sure how much this = pattern might evolve over longer periods of time, with changing BCD code = bits for hour, day, month etc.=20 The strong line on 74540 is a locally generated carrier to check = frequency drift of my FiFi-SDR receiver. Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) From: Markus Vester=20 Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2013 8:35 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: 74.550kHz Sep 29/30 Here are clearer shots of the DCF77 sidebands from the morning: http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/dcf77_prn_sidebands_131001_06= 05.png http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/74k_131001_0600.png Notes: - the RX antenna is resonant around 75 kHz, which emphasizes the PRN = sidebands below the DCF77 carrier. The fifth and sixth lobe are still = visible. In reality, the upper sidebands are slightly stronger. This is = probably due to an offset (or a 75 kHz notch) in the transmitter antenna = matching, which happens to help us now. - the Swiss time signal HBG on 75 kHz is no longer on air. - there is an RTTY signal at 73.6 kHz which could be CFH.=20 - the 1 Hz lines are surrounded by a somewhat regular fine structure, = consisting of 16.6 mHz spaced sub-lines. This is probably due to parts = of the BCD timecode and weather information data which are repeating or = similar in consecutive minutes. Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) From: Markus Vester=20 Sent: Monday, September 30, 2013 11:26 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: 74.550kHz Sep 29/30 Hi Bob, LF, last night my improvised grabber = http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/df6nm_74kHz.jpg indeed = showed weak and slightly fuzzy traces on both your QRG's, and on all = other integer Hz frequencies as well.=20 These are presumably artifacts from DCF77 which is only about 160 km = from here. In addition to the well known AM timecode, it also carries = pseudorandom phase modulation, which has been proposed in the 80ies to = provide higher resolution timing (albeit orders of magnitude worse than = Loran or GPS). The resulting sidebands extend a couple of kHz on either = side of the carrier, with pronounced minima around multiples of the chip = rate 77500/120 =3D 645.833 Hz, see=20 http://www.ptb.de/cms/fileadmin/internet/fachabteilungen/abteilung_4/4.4_= zeit_und_frequenz/pdf/5_1988_Hetzel_-_Proc_EFTF_88.pdf (page 358). The = same code sequence is repeated every second, so in theory the spectrum = would consist of sharp 1 Hz spaced lines. However, additionally the sign = of the sequence is alternated with the disseminated timecode bits, = producing some widening or "fuzzyness" of the lines. Attached is a spectrogram which was taken tonight on the resonant = antenna. Between statics, you can still see the fourth sideband lobe = which is centered near 74.6 kHz. The spectral gaps are on=20 74916.666 Hz,=20 74270.833 Hz,=20 73625.000 Hz,=20 with small and sharp central lines, presumably caused by slight = inbalances or nonlinearities in the transmitter. By these criteria, if you have the choice I would recommend to operate = somewhere near these gaps, but not exactly in their middle, and also = preferably not exactly on integer Hz frequencies ;-) Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) From: Bob Raide=20 Sent: Monday, September 30, 2013 8:02 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: RE: LF: 74.550kHz Sep 29/30 Hartmut; You make it look easy!!!=20 That station on 74.548 is WG2XRS/5, Dex in South Carolina. I am sure = you will see him when condx favor his area. Really great capture-this time I have my transmitter running correctly. = I thought I better drop down .1 hz as I was seeing sigs on .550 and .549 = on Vester's grabber but then remembered you have directional ant and the = sigs come from east of you and are not a problem. I can go to 74.549 = from now on. Thanks for all your good work! Bob WG2XRS/4 NY =20 > Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2013 17:33.:59 +0200 > From: h-wolff@gmx.de > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Subject: LF: 74.550kHz Sep 29/30 >=20 > Here are the captures taken last night: >=20 > = https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/50178231/74550Hz-2013-09-30-QRSS60Scr= een.JPG >=20 > = https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/50178231/74550Hz-2013-09-30-QRSS120Sc= reen.JPG >=20 > XRS4 was just below 74.549 kHz and very faint traces of another = station=20 > on 74.548. Only visible on the QRSS120Screen. >=20 > --=20 > 73 > Hartmut >=20 >=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01CEBF02.89DC0260 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ok, then I'd suggest moving just a = tad up to=20 the middle between whole Hz, ie you on 74549.5 and Dex on 74548.5 = Hz. That=20 would keep you guys in view of anyone watching now, and seems to be = perfectly=20 clear in Hartmut's captures as well as on Gary's G4WGT=20 grabber.
 
Best 73,
Markus

From: Bob Raide
Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2013 11:48 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: RE: LF: Clear spots around 74.55 = kHz

Markus;
I am not the one that has to rx it!  = Shoot Hartmut=20 an email-I am sure you both can agree on = something!
 
From: markusvester@aol.com
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=
Date:=20 Tue, 1 Oct 2013 23:32:58 +0200
Subject: Re: LF: Clear spots around = 74.55=20 kHz

Bob,
 
yes sure, it's not my intention to = persuade=20 you or Dex or anyone else to QSY at this time. Its more a matter of just = getting=20 aquainted with the new band's constraints and opportunities.=20 Identifying common clear frequencies=20 may become more valuable as we are (hopefully)=20 approaching lower noise winter nights. DCF77 is probably more of a=20 problem in this area around south/west DL, compared = to the=20 UK or elsewhere in Europe.
 
Best of luck again,
Markus (DF6NM)
 

From: Bob Raide
Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2013 10:42 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: RE: LF: Clear spots around 74.55 = kHz

Markus;
I would agree to the comment that you made = regarding=20 "way it is now, but"  yes it seems to change night to night-there = always=20 seems to be junk on the whole hz freqs but between them seems clear so = far for=20 our operations. I noticed even on Hartmut's captures last = night 74.549 had=20 "artifacts" present-weak but present and never saw or noticed them = before with=20 his directional RX ant.  But .2 hz higher was absolutely "junk"=20 free. Bob
 
From: markusvester@aol.com
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Date: = Tue, 1=20 Oct 2013 22:29:42 +0200
Subject: LF: Clear spots around 74.55 = kHz

Here's a slightly wider view of=20 DCF77 "phasenoise" around 74.55 kHz http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/74k_131001_20= 01.png
 
You can see some "sweet spots" around = 74557, 74552=20 and 74540 Hz, wheras the = vicinity of 74549=20 seems more affected. Not sure how much this pattern might evolve over = longer=20 periods of time, with changing BCD code bits for hour, day, = month=20 etc. 
 
The strong line on 74540 is=20 a locally generated carrier to check frequency drift of my = FiFi-SDR=20 receiver.
 
Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)

Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2013 8:35 AM
Subject: Re: LF: 74.550kHz Sep 29/30

Here are clearer shots of the DCF77=20 sidebands from the morning:
 
Notes:
- the RX antenna is = resonant around 75 kHz,=20 which emphasizes the PRN sidebands below the DCF77 carrier. The = fifth and=20 sixth lobe are still visible. In reality, the upper sidebands are = slightly=20 stronger. This is probably due to an offset (or a 75 kHz notch) in = the=20 transmitter antenna matching, which happens to help us = now.
- the Swiss = time signal HBG=20 on 75 kHz is no longer on air.
- there is an RTTY signal at 73.6 kHz = which=20 could be CFH. 
- = the 1 Hz lines are=20 surrounded by a somewhat regular fine structure, consisting of 16.6 = mHz=20 spaced sub-lines. This is probably due to parts of = the BCD=20 timecode and weather information data which are repeating or = similar in=20 consecutive minutes.
 
Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)

From: Markus=20 Vester
Sent: Monday, September = 30, 2013 11:26=20 PM
Subject: Re: LF: 74.550kHz = Sep=20 29/30

Hi Bob, LF,
 
last night my improvised = grabber http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/df6nm_74kHz.jpg indeed showed weak and slightly fuzzy traces = on both=20 your QRG's, and on all other integer Hz frequencies as well. =
 
These are presumably artifacts from = DCF77 which is=20 only about 160 km from here. In addition to the well known=20 AM timecode, it also carries  pseudorandom phase = modulation,=20 which has been proposed in the 80ies to provide higher resolution = timing=20 (albeit orders of magnitude worse than Loran or GPS). The resulting = sidebands=20 extend a couple of kHz on either side of the carrier, with pronounced = minima=20 around multiples of the chip rate 77500/120 =3D 645.833 Hz, see =
 
Attached is a spectrogram which = was taken=20 tonight on the resonant antenna. Between statics, you = can still=20 see the fourth sideband lobe which is centered near 74.6 kHz. = The=20 spectral gaps are on 
 74916.666 Hz,
 74270.833 Hz,
 73625.000 Hz, =
with small and sharp central lines, = presumably=20 caused by slight inbalances or nonlinearities in the=20 transmitter.
 
By these criteria, if you have the = choice I=20 would recommend to operate somewhere near these gaps, but not = exactly in=20 their middle, and also preferably not exactly on integer Hz=20 frequencies ;-)
 
Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)
 
 

From: Bob = Raide
Sent: Monday, September = 30, 2013 8:02=20 PM
Subject: RE: LF: 74.550kHz = Sep=20 29/30

Hartmut;
You make it look=20 easy!!! 
That station on 74.548 is WG2XRS/5, Dex in South=20 Carolina.  I am sure you will see him when condx favor his = area.
Really=20 great capture-this time I have my transmitter running correctly.  I = thought=20 I better drop down .1 hz as I was seeing sigs on .550 and .549 on = Vester's=20 grabber but then remembered you have directional ant and the sigs come = from east=20 of you and are not a problem.  I can go to 74.549 from now = on.
Thanks=20 for all your good work! Bob  WG2XRS/4 NY
 
> Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2013 = 17:33.:59=20 +0200
> From: h-wolff@gmx.de
> To:=20 rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
> Subject: LF: 74.550kHz Sep = 29/30
>=20
> Here are the captures taken last night:
>
>=20 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/50178231/74550Hz-2013-09-30-QRSS60Scr= een.JPG
>=20
>=20 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/50178231/74550Hz-2013-09-30-QRSS120Sc= reen.JPG
>=20
> XRS4 was just below 74.549 kHz and very faint traces of another = station=20
> on 74.548. Only visible on the QRSS120Screen.
>
> = --=20
> 73
> Hartmut
>
>=20
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